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Experiences from Seth Hamon's synthetic reeds
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Olle
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:51 pm    Post subject: Experiences from Seth Hamon's synthetic reeds Reply with quote

Some pipers bought plastic reeds and brought them home from the Minneapolis workshop, and I assume that Seth will soon receive orders for more. Let's collect our experiences from trying these reeds here.

I have tried them in my E/A-set by Alban Faust, which has narrower stocks than Eriksson style sets. I was surprised I could insert the new reeds in them at all, actually.

The reeds work well in my E/A-chanter, though they must be tuned to be very sharp (by almost a half-step) before the chanter is inserted in the stock to be in tune there. There is not much margin between the reed and the stock's inner wall and it seems that the tongue vibrating so close to the wall flattens the scale quite a bit. EDIT: This turned out not to be a general problem. Just make sure the reed sits absolutely straight ni the chanter.

The reeds do not fit in my drone, just like that, unfortunately, since Alban's E-drones are 5.5mm. I could drill a 6mm reed seat of course. EDIT: comment regarding tuning removed.

Aaron, how do they work in your G-set? I haven't tried them in mine yet.
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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like you, I can't use them for my drone. But in the chanter they worked very well. While the overall mechanics are similar to cane reeds, tuning them is just a little different. There is a lot less tongue to move around, so the adjustments need to be made in even smaller increments than on a cane reed. Once you realize that though, tuning isn't too bad.

I noticed two odd things and two very good things while playing these:
First, vibrato doesn't sound quite the same, at least not in the upper three notes. It's not bad at all, just unexpected.
Second, they seem very sensitive to changes in temperature, leaving them in the car while we ate dinner caused the entire scale to drop a step and a half, it took a few minutes to get it back in tune when we got inside for the evening, but it wasn't too much of a hassle. I've never seen a reed do that before.

On the positive side, once you've gotten them properly adjusted, they WILL NOT lock up (at least not in my chanter). This is something that I was especially thrilled to see. It's very good to know that if all else fails, I have guaranteed backup on hand. I can't overstate how great that is.
I also found that I could overblow my top D to Eb and even E without much difficulty, try making a stable cane reed that won't lock and that you can overblow easily - it's almost impossible. These did the trick.

Overall, they are a huge step forward. There is a slight sacrifice in sound quality, they are louder and sound a little more like a Czech dudy than a Swedish säckpipa. But (thank god) they don't sound like smallpipes. I'm going to try to make a copy of the resin body in wood this weekend if I can, see what that does if I use the same tongue.
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Olle
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with the tuning going flat when the chanter is in the stock seems only to be the case for one of my reeds (I have four). That's odd, but I guess it shows how small the margins are in an Alban Faust stock. The same reed works well in a Eriksson style stock (Seth's instruments). For example, it could be the case that the reed sits in the reed seat at a slight angle, enough to make the tongue tip hit the wall when it is vibrating. I don't know if that's the problem yet, but it could be. EDIT: It was.

I haven't noticed the temperature sensitivity, but I wonder how it can be that sensitive. I find it a little hard to believe that the small temperature differences you describe could affect the tongue itself enough to be heard. I would rather guess it is the o-rings which move around. That should be easy to test - replace them with something which can not "roll" along the tongue.
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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it was due to condensation. The water can't penetrate the plastic, so it just sat there. It wasn't a lot, but with how short the tongue is, I can't imagine that it would take all that much to make a difference. I'll see if I can repeat the experience to understand what happened. I'll also try a different bridle to see if it makes a difference too.
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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It happened again. I had the reed in the car for a while after playing, took it back inside and tried it out - it was flat. Not by as much as before though. I also looked to see if there was any moisture on the reed: nothing. I got it back in tune in only a few seconds and it stayed there.

I can't explain it. It's a little strange but I don't see that it's much of a problem, it's very a easy quirk to fix and I've found the reeds to be very reliable once they are in tune.
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Olle
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some new things I discovered:

* It is a bit tricky to tune a Faust E/A chanter to A with these reeds. They were made for a shorter chanter, so they tend to be flat in a Faust chanter. It is doable though, and well worth the effort.

* Tuning the reeds by moving the bridle also affects tone quite a bit. Moving the bridle towards the tip of the tongue not only sharpens tuning, but also makes the sound more closed-in (i.e. sound less like cane reeds). But you can compensate by bending up the tongue, which also affects tone and tuning (in the other direction).

* Moving the bridle (an o-ring) is something you want to do in very small steps. We're talking fractions of millimeters. I am considering replacing the o-ring with something flat, a ring cut off a rubber hose or something like that, which does not move as easily (cannot roll). I strongly suspect this is where Aarons "temperature" problems lie. (I don't believe the reeds are that sensitive to temperature - if they were, the effects of the temperature change caused just by playing them (room temperature --> body temperature) would be noticable, which they are not, as far as I can tell)

* It is possible to overblow (falsetto) to F# on my E/A chanter, in the same way as described for D/G chanters (overblowing to E) on my web site. This technique usually does not work well for cane reeded E/A chanters, in particular not if mouth blown. The falsetto tone is weak though (at least on my chanter).

* You can also reach F and F# by just playing E and squeezing harder on the bag. At least F is usually reachable that way also with cane reeds, but it seems the plastic reeds can take much greater pressure changes without stopping. You can even play D# by playing D with high pressure. That would cause most cane reeds to stop dead.
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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olle, I noticed the same thing on my G chanter. The overall scale tends to go just a bit flat, but I don't think my experience in this particular aspect is very applicable overall. A Faust G chanter is quite a bit longer than a Hamon A chanter, so like you said, it's more the chanter than the reed.

You're right. The issue with the pitch changing with changes in temperature was due to the o-ring moving very slightly. Plastic hose worked very well instead.

I'm considering sanding the tongue on one of the reeds to see what effect that has on the volume and tone (and other things as well).

I did some recording this weekend, and I made sure to record a tune using one of Seth's reeds so people here on the forum can hear it. I'll see if it's worthwhile do a second one after I've messed with the reed a little.
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MatthewVanitas
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've run the snyth reeds in my Hamon cast-resin set, and ran just fine as one would expect.

With some trepidation, I tried them out in my Favre D/G bellows-blown mesquite set. It took a few wraps of teflon tape to make them fit, and I was a bit dubious since the Favre pipes (Faust-style) have a wider bore and much longer chanter than my Hamons.

However, I was pleasantly surprised to find out that, with barely any adjustment, the synth reeds run great. Haven't noticed any stability issues with the bellows pipes. I didn't hear a tremendous difference in tone/volume between the natural and sythn reeds in my Hamon pipes, but in the Favre pipes it's a night-and-day difference. In the Favre, the synth reeds are way louder, though not necessarily harsh. I'm not sure if it's a difference due to bore, the softer/porous mesquite wood, or just that the Favre natural reeds I have were very quiet.


I still need to mess with them more to get the nuances. I have noticed that I tend to play the synths at closer (75%) to max pressure, so I tend to be a bit careful hitting the low D (on the D/G) to make sure the notes blend. Oddly enough, didn't have that experience on the Hamon pipes. Maybe I just need to make a tighter sliding band for my D/G pipes, as I suspect I may be knocking it slightly when I finger the low C#.


Long/short, very happy with these reeds, and looking forward to figuring out more tricks of fine-tweaking them. I've also asked Favre about making a low C/F chanter, so will try the synth in that if I can get him to make me one.

Has anyone gotten a set of Magnus Högfeldt's reeds for contrast? I emailed him a couple months back once he announced he had finalised his design, but never heard back.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt,
I'm willing to bet that the difference is due to the bore, just like you said. I have a Faust set, and I also have a bellows blown set made by Boris. I've noticed that Boris's chanter is a lot louder than Alban's - even with the same reed.
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MatthewVanitas
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aaron: have you got the synth reed to work in that low (Low G?) holly drone on your Favre set? Is it just a matter of sliding the bridle further down to drop the basic note, or do you leave the bridle at the same place as the D chanter and the bore length alone lowers the note?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatthewVanitas wrote:
I was a bit dubious since the Favre pipes (Faust-style) have a wider bore and much longer chanter than my Hamons.


My A chanters have a 6mm bore and the G chanters have a 7mm bore. I believe Bo uses the same bore sizes since we both started with the same plans. I haven't messed around much with the synth reeds in the G chanters but I have tried it and it does seem to work quite well. Seth
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MatthewVanitas
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been playing them in the Favre D/G for a couple weeks, including about an hour tonight, and they're working great. Once I get the bridle adjusted and the tuning band and drone set, all the intervals sound great and are quite stable. It's nice not to have to hold my breath when I jump to the high D octave and hope that it's on.

I have been using mostly open fingering, so I'll try closed next time to see if I can ID any whackness.

Seth: what's the deepest pipe you've gotten these to work in? Have you run them in any Low E or Low A drones, or are you just using your smallpipe synth drones in anything lower than a D/G chanter?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt,
I'm glad you brought it up. I haven't even thought to try it in Boris's drone yet. I mentally ruled them out as drone reeds all together once I realized that they wouldn't fit into my Faust drone.

Also, for those of you who read my earlier post, DON'T sand the tongue of the plastic reed. Even a tiny amount of thinning creates a horrible sound.
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MatthewVanitas
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aaron K. Holt wrote:
Matt,
Also, for those of you who read my earlier post, DON'T sand the tongue of the plastic reed. Even a tiny amount of thinning creates a horrible sound.


Good to know; the best mistakes to learn from are others' mistakes... Wink


Definitely looking forward to hearing how the snyth works in the big drone. Is Boris' low drone of the same diametre as a 6mm-7mm chanter bore? I know that on the huge bass drones Faust goes to a tighter SSP-ish bore (is that 4mm?), but I don't know where the cutoff pitch is.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's only a little narrower than the chanter bore, but definitely a lot wider than Alban's - which also means louder. If I put the reed from Alban's drone in there, it can almost slide down through the entire length of the bore.

- I believe Alban's low drones are somewhere around 5 or 5.5mm. But I don't personally have one, so I can't say that with 100% confidence.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding my long drone bores, I actually go much narrower than that. The reason why Aaron's long drone has a wide bore is that I made his according to a set of drawings that he had sent me which I understood to be those measurements recommended by Alban himself. After reading this thread it appears that it was not so.

Aaron, you can always insert a piece of brass or plastic tubing into the bore to make it narrower. just make sure that it isn't too tight fitting or it may cause the wood to crack. For the record, my current long drone top piece is 3/16" and the lower piece is 7/32". These are my preferred bore diameters for a long D drone.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seth, I've been hearing a lot of positive reviews about your synth reeds. I'd love to try one out.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boris, if you recall, that particular low drone was actually an experiment, and not drawn from Alban's example at all. We traded a couple of emails discussing how to make the bore the right size for the tone while keeping it quiet enough so as not to drown out the chanter. I didn't have a low drone made by him at that time (I still don't). Those drawings were based on our email discussions.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do recall that there was some flexibility for experimenting with the long drone indeed. I thought, however, that the initial drawing was loosely based on a discussion that you had had with Alban and that the wider bore was a desired feature like it is with the sackpipa's high drone. How does the set play now? Does the long drone balance out with the chanter?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I don't like to bother Alban very often if I don't have to. He's a very busy guy. I had asked Olle at one point or another about the length of his drone, because we had no starting reference point, but the bore was an estimate. I *did* base the exterior appearance off of some photos that I had seen of Alban's low drones though.

The set is great, Thanks! The low drone blends with the chanter very well. Now that I'm thinking about it, the difference in volume is likely due to the fact the two bagpipes are made from different woods. I say that because that chanter on the set you made for me is a little louder and brighter sounding, which would seem to indicate a smoother bore. (My Faust set is made of plum, and the Favre set is holly for those of you who were wondering)
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

favrepipes wrote:
Regarding my long drone bores, I actually go much narrower than that. The reason why Aaron's long drone has a wide bore is that I made his according to a set of drawings that he had sent me which I understood to be those measurements recommended by Alban himself. After reading this thread it appears that it was not so.

Aaron, you can always insert a piece of brass or plastic tubing into the bore to make it narrower. just make sure that it isn't too tight fitting or it may cause the wood to crack. For the record, my current long drone top piece is 3/16" and the lower piece is 7/32". These are my preferred bore diameters for a long D drone.


I've made one 2 drones from the plans that Aaron drew. The first one was by the plans and the second one, it was changed up a bit, but both shared the same bore size as the chanter. I'm now making both large bore,per say, and smaller bore/smallpipe/uilleann type drones. I think their is a lot of room for the Sackpipa to evolve beyond what has been deemed traditional and still be a Swedish bagpipe.

This is a set with narrow bored drones.
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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a pretty cool looking bagpipe!
What pitch does the low drone play?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aaron K. Holt wrote:
That is a pretty cool looking bagpipe!
What pitch does the low drone play?


The low drone is E/D, and the lengths and bore sizes were stolen from the plans I use to make my Scottish smallpipe (E) baritone drone, with a little added length so it can drop down to D.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some input not based on Swedish chanters yet but in designing my Zetland pipe over the past 40 years. First of all, O rings tend to center and roll or snap back to where they were rather than move when you nudge them. A flat band works better, and you will not even see the movement a lot of the time. Just nudging the bridle where it crosses the tongue, without bothering to slide the whole bridle up or down, often moves it enough to make a lot of difference and this means a big O ring almost always gets nudged accidentally even when putting it in a loose fitting stock, and tight fitting stocks are even worse.

Also, the physical size of the internal stock bore can make a huge difference in both overall pitch and intonation of the chanter. This becomes more apparent in a tight fitting stock with a large mechanical reed, like Seth's since they take up more room in the bore. The length of the bore also makes a difference, but just how tight the reed itself fits into it, whether it touches anything or bumps anything or not also can affect both pitch and intonation, and frankly, it's a bit mysterious to predict how.

Also, something you would never think might be happening, is that closing off the butt end of the chanter stock, at least with Zetlands, which is very similar to the Swedish chanter, can flatten pitch overall and drop upperhand pitch remarkably. This means if the bag stretches across the top of the butt end of the stock and changes just how much is blocked as you play, or from one position to another, it can mysteriously make your chanter flat particularly on the thumb note. You can check and see if this is happening by playing the back D or back A and pushing your finger or thumb on the bag so it partially blocks or moves over inside the stock and tell me what happens.

This was far less apparent when I was using cane reeds in Zetland chanters, but when I went to composites in the mid-90's they were far more sensitive to all the factors mentioned in this thread, particularly condensation, even if it wasn't externally visible on the tongue.

I've got a set of Seth's "Traffic Cone Orange" pipes coming so when they get here I can tell you more. Seems he sold all the reeds from the pipes he made for the Minneapolis workshops and has to make more before we can get a set of pipes in for the wife.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll give my short review of my own reeds.

First thing you notice when you pop one of these reeds in is, it sharpens the bottom hand quite a bit. This can be alleviated by using a tuning band to flatten these notes. I use 3m plastic tape for this on the plastic chanters because they are smooth and the tape slides around fairly easy.

One thing I've noticed when flattening the low E to work with the synthetic reeds. It has to be covered more than half way in many cases, which causes the note to be unstable at differing pressure variations quite easily. I have eleviated this problem by milling the hole in an attempt to open the hole up towards the bell of the chanter. It opens up about one more hole length and allows the note to be more open and enough of the hole is exposed to create stability. Works quite nice and looks like a flute embrochure when uncovered by the tape. Also, it can be adjusted right back if the chanter is to be played with a cane reed, because the cane reed will flatten the bottom hand back to the original specs. Hope that makes sense, I just got my wisdom teeth pulled and I'm sitting on the couch under the influence of pain meds. Cheers, Seth
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

texasbagpiper wrote:

One thing I've noticed when flattening the low E to work with the synthetic reeds. It has to be covered more than half way in many cases, which causes the note to be unstable at differing pressure variations quite easily. I have eleviated this problem by milling the hole in an attempt to open the hole up towards the bell of the chanter. It opens up about one more hole length and allows the note to be more open and enough of the hole is exposed to create stability. Works quite nice and looks like a flute embrochure when uncovered by the tape.


Huh, I had noticed this on my D/G set, that I'm covering 1/2-2/3 of the C hole (right pinky) with the tuning band, and when it starts getting past the halfway-covered point it can make my D sound a bit rubbery. I may need to talk to Boris about how best to file downward from the low hole to get a bit more wiggle room. So long as the now-elongated hole can still be covered with the finger, the length of the hole doesn't matter much as long as the top of the hole is at the right spot for the note?

I'm having Favre make me a C/F chanter, and plan to use synth reeds in it; should I make sure he has a synth reed to try out in it and fine-tune it with before sending it to me?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatthewVanitas wrote:
texasbagpiper wrote:

One thing I've noticed when flattening the low E to work with the synthetic reeds. It has to be covered more than half way in many cases, which causes the note to be unstable at differing pressure variations quite easily. I have eleviated this problem by milling the hole in an attempt to open the hole up towards the bell of the chanter. It opens up about one more hole length and allows the note to be more open and enough of the hole is exposed to create stability. Works quite nice and looks like a flute embrochure when uncovered by the tape.


Huh, I had noticed this on my D/G set, that I'm covering 1/2-2/3 of the C hole (right pinky) with the tuning band, and when it starts getting past the halfway-covered point it can make my D sound a bit rubbery. I may need to talk to Boris about how best to file downward from the low hole to get a bit more wiggle room. So long as the now-elongated hole can still be covered with the finger, the length of the hole doesn't matter much as long as the top of the hole is at the right spot for the note?

I'm having Favre make me a C/F chanter, and plan to use synth reeds in it; should I make sure he has a synth reed to try out in it and fine-tune it with before sending it to me?


Yea, it sounds like the "c" hole on your G chanter needs to be enlarged or moved down a bit. Having to cover the hole more than half is going to lead to major stability issues with that particular note, also the synthetic reed with probably make it even sharper. I'm not going to tell you to modify the chanter without talking to the maker about a proper fix, but I know what I would do. As far as the synthetic reed in the F chanter, you may be the first to try the reeds in an F chanter, so we will have to wait an see how that works. I'm thinking about making chanters that are specific to my synthetic reeds, but I like the idea of being able to use both cane and synthetics in the same design. Still haven't decided yet, but I will probably do this on the poly chanters, since they are so cheap to make. I was messing with a set that had cane reeds in it the other day, and realized how happy I am with the synthetics. Its a whole new ballgame with synthetics. I can't wait to see what other makers come up with in the future, without copying my design, of course. Anyways, I'm already experimenting with new and better designs. Seth
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
EDIT: This turned out not to be a general problem. Just make sure the reed sits absolutely straight ni the chanter.


This raises a good point: I had some issues with the synth in my drone on the Hamon poly set. It would sporadically go way off-pitch, and then I realised that it just wasn't seated well since there was a bit of casting "flash" on the face of the drone.

Doesn't matter too much with cane reeds which are the same size of the bore, but with a reed that sits atop the face of the drone it can keep the synth-reed from sitting flat. The reeds don't have a lot of "post" (or whatever you call the little bit that sticks down into the bore), so they do need to sit well, and I do need to extra-carefully Teflon my reed posts again so they'll sit solidly in my D/G Favre chanter seat.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatthewVanitas wrote:
Quote:
EDIT: This turned out not to be a general problem. Just make sure the reed sits absolutely straight ni the chanter.


This raises a good point: I had some issues with the synth in my drone on the Hamon poly set. It would sporadically go way off-pitch, and then I realised that it just wasn't seated well since there was a bit of casting "flash" on the face of the drone.

Doesn't matter too much with cane reeds which are the same size of the bore, but with a reed that sits atop the face of the drone it can keep the synth-reed from sitting flat. The reeds don't have a lot of "post" (or whatever you call the little bit that sticks down into the bore), so they do need to sit well, and I do need to extra-carefully Teflon my reed posts again so they'll sit solidly in my D/G Favre chanter seat.


The "post", is the same size as the width of the teflon tape. I experimented with longer ones, but the longer it is the more it takes up space in the bore and it affected the high E by making it a little flatter. Your pipes, most pipes won't have the problem Olle is talking about. Alban is the only one I know of that uses the smaller stock bores, the other makers use a larger one closer to 11/16"-3/4" from my experience. Seth
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Aaron K. Holt
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Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Posts: 291
Location: Pennsylvania

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep in mind also that Alban (and Leif too I think) use Metric and not English units, I know that there were a number of plans out there that had the drawings "translated" into English measurements, so I believe that wider stocks are a bit of an Americanism - that is, unless I'm wrong. Smile
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