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Fine tuning the chanter
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Tex
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:14 pm    Post subject: Fine tuning the chanter Reply with quote

I have a question as to what everyone is using to fine tune their chanters?
On Olle's site he uses a bicycle inner tube, which I have tried and found that I can't seal the hole. Maybe my fingers don't have enough fat on them or the inner tube I have used is too thick. I hate to use black electrical tape like I use on my GHB pipes, the stuff is so sticky. Right now I am using blue low tac painters tape since I am not found of using bees wax.
Any other ideas?
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Anders



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use bees wax, sometimes mixed up with some red wax from dutch cheese, it makes it a bit softer and more sticky i think. I think it's better than both the electrical tape and the bicycle tube, but still I sometimes swear when it doesn't want to stick. One pracitcal thing is that I always have a blob of wax on my chanter to be able to tune the reed.

/Anders
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use glue. It might sound drastic, but I found that with the reeds I use once you tuned it pproperly, it stays that way. Used both PVA and superglue at different times for different chanters.
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Tex
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, glue? That does sound drastic! I love idea of being able to fine tune the chanter easily and the inner tube idea from Olle's site would have been perfect if I could get it to seal. My only experience with pipes is the GHB and every new reed usually means lots of tuning the chanter. Do these pipes stay in tune that well that you can glue the chanter holes?
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Olle
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see why anyone would want to use glue. Bees-wax is safer. Easy to remove if needed, but will stay there for decades if you want.

I only use rubber rings cut from bicycle tubes for holes that I want to adjust often, like, the major/minor hole under the left hand long finger and at the hole under the right pinkie. For semi-permanent tuning I use bees-wax. It is not messy and does not stick to the fingers, since it is only along the inner rim of the hole, not on top of it. Hmm, did that make sense?
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Tex
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that makes sense and I will give bees wax another go.
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In misty Scandinavia hot weather perhaps is not as much of an issue. My way just occasionally it gets hot, and beeswax would tend to get a bit sticky. In any case, since my pipes are cromatic, by crossfingering, they need to have very exact tuning. If I would need to retouch the fingerholes every time I play, there would be too little time left for actual playing, as really fine-tuning the holes takes maybe a couple of weeks, when having made the chanter in the first place, of touching up/ playing/ touching up again, until you get it just right, and then it stays like that.Cross-fingered semitones are not at all simple to get perfectly in tune, while having the whole tones staying in tune, too.
But I also have to add that I rarely need to use the technique, as making the fingerholes slightly smaller, and then gradually enlargeing them works quite well, unless you get carried away.
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Olle
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point was that it doesn't matter if the wax gets sticky - its inside the rim of the hole - your fingers won't touch it. Actually, it's worse with bicycle tubing - some brands of that do get sticky.

Your requirements on exact and once-for-all tuning, to get cross fingering work right, is not realistic on Swedish pipes. You will have to adjust some finger holes over time, to different climates and reeds. Swedish pipes are not cross fingered (which is a feature, not a disadvantage).
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am of course well aware that most pipes, including the sacpipa are not cross-fingered. Ant in truth, sometimes I wish I could play some of the embellishments that are impossible using cross-fingering. but then, I couldn't play perhaps as much as half of my repertoire.
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Tex
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bees wax is working fine though it is a bit of a chore to get the right amount in the hole.

What does every one use to hemp thier instrument. The chanter I have had a white colored hemp that seemed to be dry. The chanter liked to fall out so, I wrapped the chanter in yellow waxed hemp. The waxed yellow hemp did not seem to help.
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use ordinary thin cotton thread, and plenty of cork grease. (well, I make my own, as I use rather a lot, it's basically 50/50 beeswax/vaseline) That is what was used by just about every kind of woodwind maker, apart from the scottish bagpipes until they started using cork. Apparently some rather big companies are turning back to cotton these days, as it's more forgiving in swelling/shrinking conditions. Poly cotton works, but only just, it doesn't soak in the grease well enough.
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Olle
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The bees wax is working fine though it is a bit of a chore to get the right amount in the hole.


It doesn't have to be. I insert a bit more than necessary, i.e. make the note too flat, then fine-tune using a tooth pick, pushing against the edge of the bees-wax.
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Tex
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The toothpick idea is brillant! Thank you, Olle.
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chad_fross



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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:18 am    Post subject: fine tuning with rubber wash glove Reply with quote

Hi again, I thought I might way in on this...........unfortunately my current solution seems to only be "slightly" better (for me) then the cycle tubing. I use cut-off segments from the little fingers of rubber wash gloves, you know the yellow ones used for washing dishes? I cut the segments (about 1/2 inch wide bands), turn them inside out to expose the off white interior, and use those. They are not as thick as the cycle inner tubes, and I find they don't interfere with playing the tone holes at all really. Well, it works so far, and my experience is nowhere near as extensive as many in this forum, but so far so good..............just thought I'd put it out there for the good of the group
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Olle
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds like an excellent idea, Chad! I will definitely try it.
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Idoheby



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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess that this is a kind of tuning sistem for the last hole on this sackpipa? Can anybody comment it?



small brass tube inside, to change the size of the hole I guess...
looks like tuning sistem in Jurgen Ross drones...

and also interesting way to seal the holes (selicone I guess)
The surface of dipression stays flat.

The only information about this cornemuse suédoise I have is:

-Cornemuse à bouche
-Unique bourdon
-Année 2003

Matériaux : Prunier, bagues en corne noire

Facteur : Mike York

from: http://www.pipeshow.net
http://www.pipeshow.net/musee-virtuel-saackpipa.htm
(last updated very long ago...)
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Olle
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bottom hole tuning mechanism looks like the same idea as on Swedish pipes by Börs Anders Öhman. He "stole" the idea from Estonian torupills, I believe, where this is common. The end of the chanter is turnable, and covers/uncovers the hole from the inside. (On toruillls this is usually external, but the idea is the same.)

The silicone plugs look very nice.
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JNelson



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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What does every one use to hemp thier instrument. The chanter I have had a white colored hemp that seemed to be dry. The chanter liked to fall out so, I wrapped the chanter in yellow waxed hemp. The waxed yellow hemp did not seem to help


i just use dental floss, it's thin, but if you wrap it enough times it should hold, it's usually already waxed for you.
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JP WNC



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PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That hole tuning mechanism reminds me of the interesting drone switching mechanism on the Walsh convertible smallpipes. You can see it here about halfway down the page: http://www.hotpipes.com/walsh.html
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Frédéric Vigouroux



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know a musicien who uses the brass tube system for his bagpipe.
i have a tiny brass tube which reduce a finger hole. So i can play in an alternative mode (Fd> Fnatural). (rifle metal jacket)
But the method i use the most : scratch the reed, move the tying.
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Olle
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:28 pm    Post subject: Re: fine tuning with rubber wash glove Reply with quote

chad_fross wrote:
I use cut-off segments from the little fingers of rubber wash gloves, you know the yellow ones used for washing dishes? I cut the segments (about 1/2 inch wide bands), turn them inside out to expose the off white interior, and use those.


Chad, I have tried that rubber glove idea now for a while (a month or so - it took me a while to come around to it). It works very well, and I thank you again for an excellent suggestion!

The only drawback I have noticed so far is that the rings are more difficult to move around when tuning. Using bicycle tube rings, I could move the one under my right hand pinkie even while playing (to fine tune low E) but that is not possible anymore. A very minor drawback, though.
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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've noticed the segments of inner tube on my major/minor holes have become a little less snug over time. I really like the little plugs shown on the photo of the "cornemuse suédoise", I don't know anything about plastics/epoxy/silicon, is there something that I can pick up at a place like Home Depot or Lowes to make something like that?

RE: Beeswax - in the past month or so I've noticed that my A and Bb have crept upward by about 30-40 cents. This is true with any reed that I try. All other notes play spot on though. I used the beeswax & toothpick method to correct them and now the chanter plays perfectly in tune. I'm a little confused as to why only two holes would start playing out of tune like that. Is this an effect of wood (in my case, plum) getting older?

Does anyone have any insight on either of these issues?
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Olle
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aaron K. Holt wrote:
I've noticed that my A and Bb have crept upward by about 30-40 cents.


That's called inflation. Blame the Federal Reserve! :-)

Quote:
I'm a little confused as to why only two holes would start playing out of tune like that. Is this an effect of wood (in my case, plum) getting older?


You have checked that the bore is clean, I assume? Usually, when something happens to individual notes like that, it is because something clogs the bore somewhere (not necessarily at the same location as the finger hole). Look for small cracks or any other possible leak higher up on the chanter as well (again, not only close to the finger hole but all the way up).
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Anders Jackson
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aaron K. Holt wrote:
I've noticed the segments of inner tube on my major/minor holes have become a little less snug over time. I really like the little plugs shown on the photo of the "cornemuse suédoise", I don't know anything about plastics/epoxy/silicon, is there something that I can pick up at a place like Home Depot or Lowes to make something like that?

You should be able to to this if you use vaselin(? help Olle) (or any grease will do) on the surfaces around and in the hole. Don't put to much on the surfaces in the holes, you want silicon to fill it all out. That will make silicone not to stick in your pipe. Then put some silicone in the hole, put some string into it and wait. Notice that silicon will smell a lot, until it's ready.
After 24 h you should be able to pull out a plug. It will be easy to remove if you make some mistake.

I have not actually tried this myself, but I have glued some aquariums. And any fat from fingers or so will ruin your work. Sad
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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys.
Olle, F natural has recently joined the club of out of tune notes now too. I checked the bore, and cleaned it out with a pipe brush as well. I'm very fussy over my bagpipe. I keep it very clean and take good care of it.

From a playing standpoint these notes aren't that much of a problem. The beeswax at the tops of the holes corrects the pitch perfectly. But I am still a little curious why this would be happening. I don't see anything amiss either inside or out.
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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been having a tuning problem since February that I believe I know how to correct, but I would like to verify that I'm right before I do.

Individual notes across the full range of my chanter are out of tune, but my key notes (G/D) are spot-on.

The notes are as follows (from high to low):

D - right-on

C# - right on / C - 20 cents flat.

B - right-on / Bb - 20 cents sharp

A - 20 cents sharp

G - right on

F#/F - 20 cents flat

E 10 cents flat

D (N/A - it usually needs to be flattened a little no matter what)

C right on.

I find it odd that the offending notes (with the sole exception being E) are EXACTLY 20 cents out of tune.

I have been using beeswax to correct the sharp notes, but the flat notes...
I really don't want to get out my little file if I don't have to.

The problem with F#/F may be transient, but my C has been giving me problems with every reed that I've ever used for two years now, sometimes I can get it to play in tune, sometimes I can't. I will say that I find it particularly alarming that C should be flat while both Bb and A are sharp.

If anyone has any suggestions I'd really like to hear 'em because I'm planning on recording this month and this couldn't have happened at a worse time.
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Olle
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

20 cents off compared to what? Most tuners can only handle equal temperament which is not correct for a bagpipe. Bagpipes are made for just intonation. If you trust your equal temperament tuner some of your notes will be off by as much as 18 cents. So you still have a problem, but perhaps not by as much as your tuner implies.

Unless the tuner can handle just intonation it is only useful to tune the tonic (G in your case). You should tune the rest by ear.
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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's just it, regardless of what the tuner says, they don't *sound* right at all. I usually don't use the tuner for notes other that D and G, but lately C, Bb and A sound quite wrong. Not having any other way of checking them I had to use the tuner. It becomes all the more noticeable if I play along with other instruments.

The notes on the lower half of the scale sound fine (even though the tuner says otherwise), and I'm not very concerned about them.

I can correct Bb and A with some beeswax, but C has been a chronic pain in the neck. In the past I could get it close enough that it sounded tolerable, but this required me to tune my reed in such a way that top D was very, very unstable and I don't like that. I understand that some notes will be off when checked with an e-tuner due to just intonation, but this C seems to be a problem. No matter how many different reeds I try, it always sounds flat. I've been thinking about taking a file to it, but I'd rather not do that without exploring other options first.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you record your chanter and upload that somewhere for me to listen to?

I assume that you have checked that the chanter bore is clean?

You don't have a E-key, do you? It doesn't look like it on your Avatar picture. If you have, though, check for leaks there. Yes, a leak there might actually flatten the pitch of individual lower notes, strange as that may seem.

Is your C# hole plugged with wax or do you have a rubber ring there? I have plugged mine. It's so very rarely used anyway. When I want to play a tune in D (i.e. if I need the sharp seventh) I do so on my E/A chanter, or play it in C on the D/G chanter. If you are willing to sacrifice the C# you could plug it, as I have done, and then make a tiny hole through the wax, to sharpen the C.

I have come across Faust chanters (two or three) with your C problem before, though, so it might be a maker's mistake. If so, I'm sure Alban is willing to fix it, but considering the distance to Sweden, I would risk putting a drill to it myself. There are materials which I don't know the English name for ("plastiskt trä", in Swedish = lit. "plastic wood") which can be used to permanently seal up any mistakes you make.
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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I'm waiting on a microphone at the moment. As soon as I get it I'll upload a recording.

I checked the bore, it's clean, I also cleaned the chanter again just for good measure.

Nope, no E-key, and I usually keep the C# hole sealed with wax like you do. I tried poking a tiny hole in the wax near the lower edge of the hole, but that raised the note a little too much.

I don't mind altering the hole myself, as you said it can always be resealed, (I know the stuff you're talking about, but I can't remember the name either), but I'll wait until you hear the recording, it's always possible that there is something that I'm missing.
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