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Seasoning the Bag
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JoshCobb



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
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Location: Hopkins, Minnesota

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:40 pm    Post subject: Seasoning the Bag Reply with quote

Here is an English translation of the original Swedish (http://www.piping.se/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=207) on how to season the bag, compliments of Gunnar Thander in Minneapolis. Thanks, Gunnar! By the way, "Atamon", as you'll guess, is a preservative that one can buy in Sweden. I imagine that you can buy something similar here as well. I bought pearl glue from a Swedish company.

Seasoning the bag

An airtight bag is the be-all and end-all (Alpha and Omega) for a piper. You shouldn't be able to press any air at all out of a bag with corked up openings . One can write a lot about making bags airtight and there are probably just as many 'sealing compound recipes' as there are bagpipe makers. I think this recipe works well.
Pearl glue and glycerin
You will find pearl glue and glycerin in any well-stocked paint shop. You will find Atamon (preservative - sodium benzoate) at the grocery store.
Take two tablespoonfuls of pearl glue and pour into a can (cut off the top of a beer can or use an ordinary plastic cup). Pour water over it until the glue pearls are covered by about 0.1916 inch (0.5 centimeter). Put the can in a pan with simmering water and stir until the pearl glue is completely liquefied. The solution should be like unwhipped cream in consistency. Add glycerin in the ratio of 1 part of glue to 4 parts of glycerine. A plastic cup should be big enough to hold the mixture. Finish by adding one tablespoonful of Atamon. Stir and let the mixture cool a bit. Pearl glue smells quite badly when you prepare it, so don't forget to air the room!
Pour approximately 5 -6.75 fluid ounces (1.5 – 2 deciliters) of the mixture into the bag. Rub the bag carefully with the sealing compound and be extra careful with the seams and around the stocks. Cork up all stocks with the exception of the blowpipe and inflate the bag gently. Don't blow too hard to start with – only hard enough to stop the insides from touching each other. Remove the corks and hang the bag upside down to allow excess solution to drain off when the bag doesn't absorb any more sealing compound. Let it dry overnight and preferably the next day too.
Leftover sealing compound may be kept in a bottle or a can with a tight-fitting cover. It will keep longer if it's stored in a cool place and may be used again after a short heating in a water-bath or in a microwave oven (warm gradually, 5-10 seconds at a time. The solution mustn't become too warm).
Don't worry if the inside of the bag is sticky when you test it. It could take up to one or two weeks before that stops. Your bag will not become glued together completely.
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's what I always used, coming simply from having read that that is what the old-time bookbinders used. It works really well, and the mystery is that I have read a lot of stuff about the topic on other forums, and they go on and on, and very often not satisfied with the results of other types of seasonings.
Anyway, some E. European types rely entirely on the smell of goat to hold the bag airtight. That can be a very powerful binding agent, apparently.
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JoshCobb



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I worry though, if it's so sticky, wouldn't the chanter and drone get stuck in the stocks after the corks are removed and the chanter and drone are replaced? Glued, as it were?!? Or would wiping it down be enough? Also, what of the blowpipe? Is there a possibility of the valve sealing? I've seasoned my bagpipes before with Airtight seasoning, but I'd like to try this method, or the curious "honey" method mentioned by Olle.
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before pouring the stuff into the bag, I stick a stick with thread wrapped around it till it's tight in the bore of the stock into each stock. Just short of pushing it right through . When the stuffing cooled snd solidified, pull the sticks out, together with the layer of glue/glycerin, and lo and behold! The stock bores are completely dry.
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JoshCobb



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By stick, do you mean a stick from a tree, or a dowel? Also, do you remove the blowpipe as well, so the the valve does not get soiled? I always removed the blowpipe every time that I seasoned my bag.
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A dowel, just thinner then the bore, maybe 1/5 mm or so.So that there isn't too much thread to wind. And yes, they go into all stocks. So in my case that will be 3 of them for most of my pipes, chanter, blowpipe and drone.
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chad_fross



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:22 am    Post subject: keeping stocks dry from sealant..... Reply with quote

Another trick, which takes less effort than making up special sticks and works very well (from my experience seasoning a GHB leather bag), is to push some paper towel into the stocks, and leave a little bit of the paper towel hanging out of the stock........then you just cork the stock and allow that little bit of paper towel to remain exposed when you cork it up........that way, when you are ready to take the paper towel out, you have enough left hanging out to grab hold of.
But, come to think of it, I'm sure the sticks come in handy if you have those and no corks. And I'm positive it works great, so I don't want anyone to think I am trying to "bash" their method, I am just trying to present another way of skinning the same cat, as it were.
Smile
cheers,
Chad
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Anders Jackson
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is how I use it:
Plug chanter and bordun stock whith corks.
Pour seasoning in the bag through mouth hole.
Masage it through all parts of bag, It has to go into all places.
When finnished (5-10 min), pour rest out of bag. All of it. If to much left in bag, it WILL ruin your reeds.
Put mouth piece in and blow up to the bag.
Leave it like that, and let it dry out to next day. Bag should stay up, if valve is good. Put some vaseline on if the valve is hard and not sealing bag.

The glycerine makes the bag not glue together.
(to late to check spelling, sorry)
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Olle
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hehe. I remember a very hot and sunny summer day in 1995 or 1996. I had my bagpipe in a standing cylindric, and dark, bag on my back, walking around a music festival in southern Sweden. The bagpipe hade been rolled up and inserted though the top end, bag neck first, i.e. both chanter and drone reeds were close to the bottom.

When I took the pipes out to start playing, they did not make a sound. No air passed through at all (and my bag was, and still is, absolutely air tight, so it was like trying to squeeze a soccer ball). I pulled my chanter from the bag to look at the reed. I couldn't see it. It was completely covered with sticky yuck. Melted excess bag seasoning, and all of it had poured down to the reeds.

Avoid using dark bags on sunny days ...

(both reeds are still in use, though it took some time to get them clean)
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Anders Jackson
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. Had a gig a hot summer day. To prepare, I season the bag the week before.

When I started to play it went realy good. After a pause, it filled the bag and stated to play...
Nothing...
Reads all sticky with seasoning. Had to try some other reeds.
So it isn't allways needed to have a black bag hot summer days Smile

The same gig I tuned the pipes "backstage", in a nice cold old industial house (thick stone walls from 1850-1890 something).
When we started to play, it started all well. Then after a minute, the bag started to get higher and higher. Ended with a whole note high. The others had to play some songs before I could reenter the consert... Confused
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had the same experience. Only in my case left the pipes in the car on a hot day. As i was the accompanist (the only one) to a puppet show, finding 5 minutes before beginning that you haven't got bagpipes is a bit disconcerting, to say the least. Luckily, my reeds are flat reeds on a wooden turned cilynder, so a frantic clearing off of the gunk and embedded reed, followed by an equally frantic tying-on of another reed, and trhe most frantic scraping of thhis last one saved the day, about 5 minutes late.
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frodemo



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He-he-hey, my first post on this forum. Hi all....
The hide glue/glycerine stuff is superior to anything I have ever come across. "Atamon" is the Swedish equivalent to what your granny would use as a preservant in her lemonade. A pulverized Aspirin, or any similar headache pill works. But do NOT use the kind that you put in the water that makes it "fizzy." Tried it once, despite the warnings from friends, and I never could imagine that 6 oz of bag seasoning would grow to the Blob, flooding the stove. The Piper's Wife didn't think too high of cultural work that day Embarassed

The honey seasoning works very well too. And the bees just looove to be around you in the summer Very Happy

Just a tip for you if you go for the honey recipe.
When I made my first säckpipa in 1990 I made a critical error when I used honey and saddle soap. I used the wrong kind of saddle soap.

There I was in the kitchen stirring the soup together. Aaaah, such a sweet smell. Poured it into the newly sewn together bag (looked just gorgeous) with corks in the stocks, gave the bag a good massage, filled it up with air. Tight as a frog's arse. Full of hopes, I emptied the residue stuff into the trash, hung the bag to dry and went to bed.

The next morning I was jumping out of bed, full of anticipation, and went down to the kitchen. There, hanging in a string was a TENNIS RACKET!!!!
Swear to you, when I held the thing in the blow pipe, still fitted to the stock, it pointed straight away from me and was harder than the private parts of a politician in a strip joint.

BUT: If you use saddle soap with grease in it, noo problems.
However, glue/glycerine is just da ting to use.
Btw, I wrote the above translated recipe, years ago, and I swear by it.
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you need to be a politician to be hard in a strip joint?
(apologies to the moderator. I just couldn't resist)
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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone have any experience in dealing with mildew inside the bag? So far, I haven't had any problems of this sort, but I don't know what to look for should the occasion arise. I understand that the seasoning usually contains some ingredient that will keep this from occuring. I've also heard that keeping a small piece of copper inside the bag is a good way to ensure that mold won't grow in there. When I last seasoned my bag, a small sticky, seasoning-covered lump came out of my bag that used to be a sponge. I should probably replace that soon. I didn't do it right away because the inside of the bag was still sticky.

With only the relatively small openings in the stocks to look through, how can you tell if you have any mold in the first place?
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I put a pinch of salycilic acid into the mix. It's just recommended in the recipe that I use. So far (after some 3 or 4 years) I never ever had anything at all growing inside. In fact, when a previous bag got cut, and I had to throw it out, I cut it open out of curiosity, and the inside looked very thinly covered by a very flexible film of beautifully clean carpenter's glue. (that's hot glue/Scotch glue/fish glue mixed with glycerin)
Highland pipers swear by a penny coin stuck into the bag.
But if the leather is chrome tanned, (whisch is the norm these days), it should inhibit anything alive in there, as traditional tanning doesn't.
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chad_fross



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:47 pm    Post subject: honey recipe? Reply with quote

everyone keeps talking about this Honey bag sealant recipe.........but what is the recipe? Does it actually work well without clogging the reeds (barring a hot day in the open)? Will it rot?
Thanks, Chad..........
also, when you say glycerine for the other recipe, I am unfamilliar with it..........does anyone know where I could get that in the states? Or what product name I can look for in the store?
Thanks,
Chad
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Anders Jackson
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never used any honey saesoning in my bads, only this glycerine recepie (as I know, might be honey in first from Leif Eriksson).

I have had my bagpipe set with same bag since around 1989 (+/- 2 years). And never hade any problems with my bag. Even though I been treating it quite rough. Or what do you say, Olle, Frodemo or Liraman Smile
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A leatherworker gave me this tip: if you are making the bag yourself, before sewing it up, heat up the whole leather sheet. He suggested a heatlamp, they are those really strong beasts, around 200 watts or so. The idea is to heat the leather up until a smoke appears at the spot you are heating, then move onto the next area. You shold be just able to touch the leather at thye heated place, or just not touch. I tried it with my current bag-in-the-making, and the results are thoroughly gratifying. There doesn't seem to be any need for seasoning, at least not at the word GO. It might stretch later, of course. The heat seems to shrink the leather.
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Olle
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There may be another reason to season the bag than to make it airtight, though. As a disinfectant ...
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The leathers I used are all chrome tanned. This ensures more-or-less total sterility. If sterility is necessary (and in a LOT of folk traditions it doesn't seem to...), English and Scotch players simply put a penny piece (a copper alloy) into the bag. Nothing can live with that. But Bulgarian, Hungarian, Roumanian, etc, etc players simply don't worry about it, and it seems to work just fine. Maybe the smell of raw goat (the skin) keeps everything away...
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Anders Jackson
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuri wrote:
The leathers I used are all chrome tanned. This ensures more-or-less total sterility.

But that doesn't make it sterile. It just make bacteria etc not to attack the skinn. (I would guess). The bag would still be full of germs etc, that is not steril.
Quote:
If sterility is necessary (and in a LOT of folk traditions it doesn't seem to...), English and Scotch players simply put a penny piece (a copper alloy) into the bag. Nothing can live with that.

I wouldn't go that far. But copper kills lot of life forms. Not to good to have that in an aquarium for one...
Quote:

But Bulgarian, Hungarian, Roumanian, etc, etc players simply don't worry about it, and it seems to work just fine. Maybe the smell of raw goat (the skin) keeps everything away...

That would realy get all kinds of small things interested. Try put some small meat on a plate in little water a sunny day Smile

The inner of a bagpipe bag IS a damp dark place in a bag with lots of food for bacteria etc. So it has to be taken care of, in some way. Like taking that food away (make inner of the bag of rubber or plastic instead of skinn) or make that place not so good (like poison the area in different ways like those that has been noted in this thread).
And we want to make the bag air tight anyway, so why not do two thing at once?
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Bohemia it was customary to pour some milk into the bag when it was not too airtight. You can just imagine what that does to hygiene. I recently tried to help a Greek guy about to perform at a festival, who 10 minutes before going on stage discovered that customs managed to rip up his gaida bag. In the process I had a good opportunity to look inside the bag. Weeell, it's not something you'd like to introduce into a hospital, that's all I can say. Any number of ethnographical accounts of how bags are made in E. Europe show the procass thusly: 1. you skin the goat (sheep, dog, cat) (I'm not joking) 2. IF you can be bothered, you half-heartedly "tan" it by rubbing it with a mixture of wood ashes and water. Occasionally even alum is mentioned. You might even leave it for a couple of days. Then you tie in the stocks, and off you go. 2. (alternative) If you can't be bothered, you just skip all of that, and tie in the stocks as is. No wonder they had to change the skin every year-two, depending on just how much life you are happy with in your bag.
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2007 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It depends on how close to the source of new bags you are, I guess. If you have goats of your own, for example, why bother seasoning the bag. It's easy to make a new one.

Quote:
1. you skin the goat (sheep, dog, cat) (I'm not joking)


Cats, I wonder. Too small.

Swedish instrument maker Björn Björn once, for fun, built a Swedish bagpipe with a complete sheep hide as a bag. Huge. And with all the fur (on the outside). It was too warm to play in summer.

I have seen a dog bag once, here in Sweden. The instrument was of German origin, I believe.

There is an old Estonian saying: "The louder the dog howls when you hang it, the better the bagpipe". :-)
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know in Hungary they did use cat when nothing else was handy, but never females, because of the row of nipples leaking air. (sounds gruesome, doesn't it?) Same, by the way, goes for dogs, too, but with those the bigger problem was that the rather overpowering smell of dog is not everyone's idea of time pleasantly spent. And I was under the impression that Estonian torupills use seal stomach bags. But I can imagine there are only so many seals, and only so much coastline.
As to BIG bags, try finding a pic of the Maltese zaqq. Now that's one BIG bag, made from entire calves' skins, hind legs included, held upside down, with the legs sticking into the aie. To top it, the zaqq is similar to the Turkish tulums, having just two tiny chanters and a short blowpipe, and nothing else. So altogether they tend to get lost behind the huge calfskin.
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Anders Jackson
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting postings (which have nothing to do with seasoning swedish bagpipes (which is "swedish bagpipe" in swedish, "svensk säckpipa" as we only use one at a time Smile)).
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jerry revelle
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 9:55 pm    Post subject: Sackpipor or sackpipet or must plain sackpipas (Spanish?) Reply with quote

Since this is already a long way from the mark of season (seasonings, if there are more than one in America)...how about a Swedish lesson? Without a good workshop in America, sackpipas will remain difficult to play for us...or do you find sackpipor easy to play in Sweden? Is sackpipa an "en" word or an "et" word? Rolling Eyes

Sorry for missing the ".." over the "a".
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Sackpipor or sackpipet or must plain sackpipas (Spanish? Reply with quote

jerry revelle wrote:
Since this is already a long way from the mark of season (seasonings, if there are more than one in America)...how about a Swedish lesson? Without a good workshop in America, sackpipas will remain difficult to play for us...or do you find sackpipor easy to play in Sweden? Is sackpipa an "en" word or an "et" word? Rolling Eyes

Sorry for missing the ".." over the "a".

Ok, is this good enough to start with? Very Happy

Play on one set of bagpipes.
- Spela på en säckpipa
Listen to some bagpipes.
- Lyssna på några säckpipor
Give me a set of bagpipes to play on.
- Ge mig en säckpipa att spela på
Take the bagpipes so you can play the tune for me.
- Ta säckpipan så du kan spela låten för mig
Take a sheet of notes
- Ta ett notblad
Hold a steady pressuer in the sack under your left arm.
- Håll ett jämnt tryck i säcken under vänster arm

(And it is "ett", not "et" Wink )
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And I was under the impression that Estonian torupills use seal stomach bags. But I can imagine there are only so many seals, and only so much coastline.


Even in those days when they were, seals large enough to have a stomach of that size must have been hard to find in the Baltic sea. And now it would be impossible to find. The shape is still that of a seal stomach, though.
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 3:35 am    Post subject: Swedish Lesson Reply with quote

(And it is "ett", not "et")

Well Anders...I guess I asked for it, didn't I.

Tack !! Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:56 am    Post subject: Re: Swedish Lesson Reply with quote

jerry revelle wrote:
(And it is "ett", not "et")

Well Anders...I guess I asked for it, didn't I.

Well, kind of, I think... Very Happy
Quote:

Tack !! Laughing

Det var så lite så! "You're welcome!" Wink
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