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Reed making, cane buying, etc.
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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:49 am    Post subject: Reed making, cane buying, etc. Reply with quote

I had a pretty successful start at reedmaking. When I got my pipes, I only had the reeds that I bought from Alban, so I was nervous about adjusting them. I found a good retailer in France, Marion Cane & Reeds (http://www.marion-cane-reeds.com). I paid 107 EU (I think that was near 160 USD) for two kilos of cane - that's a lot of cane. My first reeds were hard to play, but eventually I got the hang of it. The only thing that I've not done very well yet is heat setting the reed down. I can raise the tongue, but I have a very hard time lowering it. But it's not a major problem - I have several working reeds that are more or less in tune.

Anyway, I'm starting this topic to hear what other people are doing, where they get their cane, wheather prefer Arundo Donax or Phragmites Australis, if they use a bridle and a hair (I use a bridle, but no hair).
I know there was some discussion on synthetic reeds a while ago, I once read something about making reeds from goose quills, has anyone tried that?
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Quimbisero



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One technique in dealing with single reeds which is common knowledge among Uilleann pipers, but not to my knowledge much used among Scottish pipers is the practice of weighting the tongue of a single reed with a small dab of sealing wax. This, combined with a thread bridle, allows a great deal of flexibility in adjusting a single reed.

It's the double reeds that are killers. Fortunately for all involved, Sackpipan do not have double reeds. Single reeds are easy!

Eoghan Twisted Evil
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Quimbisero



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I have not used quills to make reeds before. However, both hard plastic tubing and thin metal tubing work great. You cut the body of the reed from the tubing, cut or grind a flat surface on one side to hold a flat cane slip.

Then you cut a flat cane slip, much like a reed used in an saxophone or clarinet and bind the base of it to the tube with thread. Block one end of the tube with sealing wax, a piece of wood, cork or with epoxy paste glue.

David Daye has a web page which describes one version of what I'm talking about. It's at:

http://www.daye1.com/drones/reedmellow.html

Of course, while his intent was to make a very soft sounding reed, you can by using your imagination and a flat strip of decent cane, make a fairly strong and bright sounding reed.

Eoghan
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Idoheby



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
but I have a very hard time lowering it.

Maybe you opened it too much. I have this problem when crack goes behind the 'eye' (ohh my english..)

By the way, I allways try to exclude heating from my reedmaking. Bekause it can exhaust reed material.

Quote:
I paid 107 EU (I think that was near 160 USD) for two kilos of cane

Thank you for this link. I hope its not a genetically modified cane Very Happy Very Happy

Now I'm trying to make artificial reeds. I use aluminium tube and plastic tongue. All the measures like in cane one...
There is no result yet, but I am pertinacious Smile
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Olle
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aaron, you got a very good price there, I think. I paid a lot more for my cane (from http://perso.wanadoo.fr/alliaud.roseaux/). Excellent material, though. The segments have no "eye", since they were cut above each cell wall instead of below it, as most suppliers do. Easier to be consistent in your reed making that way.

Eoghan, weighing the tongue with wax is standard procedure, also to Swedish pipers.

Composite reeds (separate tongue and body, as you describe) works well for drones but is much more difficult for chanter reeds. I have yet not seen or heard a successful attempt to do that for a Swedish chanter.

This is despite composite reeds being very common in close relatives to the Swedish pipes - the Estonian torupill, for example. But all these relatives have a much wider inner bore. I have asked the most well known Estonian bagpipe maker, Ants Taul, to try to make such reeds for a Swedish bagpipe chanter, but even he is doubtful if it will work, due to the bore. There appears to be a lower limit to how small it can be for composite reeds.

Quote:
It's the double reeds that are killers. Fortunately for all involved, Sackpipan do not have double reeds. Single reeds are easy!


I beg to differ. Single reeds are definitely much more trouble than double reeds. The reason many pipers in the world assume single reeds are easier is that most pipers only have them in their drones. Making them work in a chanter (i.e. for a full octave or more) is a completely different matter. If what you say were true, the Swedish bagpipe tradition would not have died out ...

Idoheby, if you want to try making composite reeds, you should not copy the measures from natural reeds. All composite reeds I have seen are much smaller than they would have had to be if cut the natural way.
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get mine from http://www.medir.org/

I don't heat set my reeds or haven't had to yet.. I arch the tongue and put a dental rubberband on as a bridle...
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Quimbisero



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olle Gällmo wrote:
I beg to differ. Single reeds are definitely much more trouble than double reeds. The reason many pipers in the world assume single reeds are easier is that most pipers only have them in their drones.


I definitely fit that profile. I can't say I am happy to learn that I am wrong, but the information is good to have. It's new territory for me and I will brace myself for the inevitable.

Eoghan
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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't even thought of making a reed without heat setting it. I'll try that next time.

Seth & Idoheby, How do you set the key intervals? Do you guys just flex the cane upward? How do you ensure that It stays the way you adjusted it? These might be stupid questions, but like I said, I've never made a reed without heat setting it, I'm interested in trying though.

Here's a funny story - I've been using terrible beeswax for the task of reedmaking since the beginning. I'm cheap and stubborn, I knew from the first reed I made that the wax was way too hard and not sticky enough at all. But I bought a block weighing almost a pound for around 3 dollars (pure beeswax, it even had a couple of bee parts embedded in it). Anyway, I was playing Brudmarsch från Dalby the other night, when I got to the highest note - the one you have to squeeze the bag extra hard for - the vibration of my reed at that pitch must have caused that dry wax to shake right off of the tongue. The note raised in pitch with a comical sharpness. I got at least three tones above top D, at least three. I had a good laugh over it, but it's a lot like when a little kid starts saying dirty words; It's funny if it happens at home, but If you don't make it clear right away that it's unacceptable, they'll start doing it in public.
So on that note, I think it's time for me to find better beeswax, before my bagpipe starts cursing in public. (By the way, I don't have kids, so I have absolutely no idea what it's like when they start cursing - it just sounded cool).
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Olle
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use bees-wax. It is usually sufficient to just warm it up between the palms of my hands, to make it soft enough. If you want to make it stick really well, after having applied it, heat it up with a cigarette lighter (very quickly - for a fraction of a second). This melts the surface, which makes it stick.
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Idoheby



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How do you ensure that It stays the way you adjusted it?

ehh...by ears....and e-tuner

With the time its easyer for the tongue to remember the position.
So with the time its easyer to keep reed in tune.
First two days I retune the reed very often...but when reed is about 3-4 days old, it keep tuning very well (until next weather change Very Happy )

for now, I use lighter only for closing too opened reed
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Idoheby



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Idoheby, if you want to try making composite reeds, you should not copy the measures from natural reeds. All composite reeds I have seen are much smaller than they would have had to be if cut the natural way.


I come to the conclusion that composite read should be smaller..
The problem now is tongue material. Yogurt, my credit card, some other plastics failed sound test... they are too flexible I think...
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Olle
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a clarinet reed and thin it out with sand paper. You probably want to make it so thin that you can almost see through it.

It is my torupill experience that talks now - as I said I have not succeeded doing this for Swedish pipes. My best attempts sounded OK, though a bit "hard", but were very unstable in the upper half of the scale.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Take a clarinet reed

But in this case it will react on humidity...

I'm thinking of buying Shepherd smallpipes drone reeds..I really dont think that it will work without major remaking, but I must try it Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Humidity is not as much of a problem for composite reeds, even if you use a cane tongue.

When we make a conventional reed we force the tongue to take a certain elevation over the body. It is is the fact that we forced it which is the main problem. When the reed gets wet, it becomes less rigid and strives to go back to its original position (along the body).

When making a composite reed, on the other hand, you can have an absolutely straight tongue and let the body curve instead. That way, the tongue will not strive for another position (though there will still be a slight difference in how it behaves when it vibrates, as it gets wetter).
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My first bagpipe, (I only play pipes made by myself, not because of some sort of snobbery, but because the music I play (medieval) can only be played on cromatic chanters) had simply clarinet reeds mounted on wooden tubes. (boxwood) It still works, after some three years of use, it fires up instantly, the reeds are still the original ones. The bore is 8 mm, by the way. Both chanter and drone. (only one, and I tried two, but the amount of air.... I could play with two drones for maybe 3 minutes, and then had to go and ahve a rest.) The remarkable fact , though is the incredible reliabilty of the setup.
My second pipe uses the same wooden tube/tied on reed, but this time the reeds are far narrower. The result is a sound very much like the Bulgarian gaida, that is loud, rough, raunchy, raw, etc, add your own deescription. This setup works very well, except for the lowest note, the one below the 6 finger note. This one requires the pipe warming up for maybe 5 minutes or so before it starts to speak.
The other two pipes use plastic double reeds, so that is a different issue.
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chad_fross



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:45 am    Post subject: my phragmites experiences....... Reply with quote

As I have said in other threads, I do not yet have a sackpipa, but will soon enough. I have however, built a couple of Welsh Pibgorns (hornpipes) and use phragmites as the cane of choice (it grows in abundance here in Korea, oddly enough). I tried making upcut reeds with phragmites, as Olle shows on his wonderfull website, but have had little luck in keeping an upcut phragmites reed from settling properly after being blown-in. In GHB, we call it being blown-in, that is... any cane reeds need to be first played for a few days until the body and tongue have settled into there normal position. The first few days of blowing in seems like you are constantly re-tuning the drone. But after the reed is properly blown-in, you only need to fiddle with the tuning drone for a few minutes at the start of each new playing time. The cane I think has some kind of matieral "memory" of sorts, and once it has settled into position (depending on how hard/soft and wet/dry of a blower you are) usually returns quickly to that position when after being played for a few minutes. Of course, there will always be intermitnent (spelling?) sharp-flat periods during play that will cause the drone to need to be adjusted. But I think that is just caused by the elevated moisture levels causing the reed tongue to "relax". Anyway, Olle is right on all acounts of a single reed being more difficult to control then a double reed. I think the double cane reed is much more difficult and time consuming to construct, but once it is constructed correctly, give less of a hassle. In my hornpipe, if the tongue of the single reed is just a hair higher or lower, then I am left with the task of plugging beeswax in tone holes, or adjusting how deep the reed is in the reed seat. The very smallest thing can throw the darn chanter-reed relationship out of whack...........but that's the fun part for me Smile figuring it all out and making it work............
One last bit to this very long reply...........someone in another thread somewhere asked about mouth blowing cane reeds in a "sackpipa practice chanter". I can say that as unstable as phragmites is compared to arundo, my pibgorn is completely mouth blown (using a cow horn for a reedcap), and I can play it for a very long time before the reed starts to shut down. I have heard of people soaking their cane segments in heated (warm, not boiling) olive oil, then drying them completely before making the reeds. I don't know if this helps in preventing the absorption of moisture in the reed, but it's something I may have to experiment with one day.
Chad
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Anders Jackson
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, there is a period of blow-in.

To adjust the pipe, just put some bee wax on top of the reed tip to lower the hole pipe. And if you tune in the read with some smal bee wax on the tip, you can remove it to make the chanter pipe rise.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About doble reeds:
I used to say the same: Double reeds are pure horror, and so on.
Then I learned the basic crafts of making cornemuse reeds from a German friend. He couldn't understand what I was talking about. He had tried to make single reeds matching the ones in his säckpipa I made for him and found it more or less impossible.
When I sat down with him and his meticulous notes, I produced three chanter reeds for a bechonnet style chanter. They all worked perfectly with just a few minor adjustments. quite encouraging.
I think it's very easy to start fiddling with too many variables at the same time. Once you got a good method, stick to it and when you are sure of what you're doing, it'll be a lot easier to understand what is happening when you sneeze into the reed body Smile
My own experimenting with plastic/composite reeds for the chanter has gone very well up to the notes above c on an A-chanter. The work has been down for a few years now, raising a family was more fun, but I'm determined to get a method up and running.
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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of my reeds (the one I used in the recordings on the tune page) gains an odd quality to its tone when I play the top two notes (C and D). Olle mentioned to me that my C sounded a little flat, I was able to fix that, but what causes that muppet-voice quality? I thought maybe it was because the reed was a little too thin, this has recently proven not to be the case. I have two reeds that do this - the one previously mentioned, and one that I made later with a thicker tongue.

http://www.concad.com/forum/phpBB2/NSAA_Tunes/index.html

It's most noticeable on Äppelbo.
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Idoheby wrote:
Quote:
Idoheby, if you want to try making composite reeds, you should not copy the measures from natural reeds. All composite reeds I have seen are much smaller than they would have had to be if cut the natural way.


I come to the conclusion that composite read should be smaller..
The problem now is tongue material. Yogurt, my credit card, some other plastics failed sound test... they are too flexible I think...



I have 3 synthetic chanter reeds in my posession right now for E/A chanters made by Leif Erikson.. I'll post pictures of them when I get a chance... Seth ,

They look like shrunken Shepherd SM90 Highland Drone reeds ( that's what they look like anyway)
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Idoheby



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW! I want to look at them...and to listen Rolling Eyes

I talked to Jurgen Ross about Shepherd reeds. He said that GHB and SP drone reeds will not work in sackpipa because they made to produce only one tone...how do you think?
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Tex
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I can not keep my E from easily climbing to F should I add some weight to the tip of the reed?
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frodemo



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tex wrote:
If I can not keep my E from easily climbing to F should I add some weight to the tip of the reed?


Heck no! Very Happy
Get used to it and enjoy the useability of nice f-glissandos.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:44 am    Post subject: using tenor GHB drone reed??? Reply with quote

I have been trying to source reed tube cane with little luck. I have been using a form of Phragmites Australis, but the reeds seem to "give in" rather quickly unless I put a small layer of clear fingernail polish on the tongue surface, and even then, they seem to submit to moisture rather quickly. Which brings me to a possible alternative........modified Highland tenor drone reeds.

I had one laying around, so I decided to cut it to the same length as my home-made reeds (after first strengthening the area where the tongue sits on the bed with some super glue to keep it from coming off when I shortened the reed from the bottom). I shortened it from the bottom, and re-tied the briddle. I then trimmed down the end that fits into the chanter because it was to thick to fit. After that was done, I did a very large amount of trimming and sanding on the tongue in order to get to sound at the same pitch as my homemade reeds (and consequently to sound at about the same pitch as the sound examples given on Olle's website). Once I got it trimmed down to play in pitch it was still too stiff........so I trimmed it some more, then opened the tongue a little bit more in order to still play at pitch (other wise, the additional trimming would have made the reed go flat). I tried it out in my E/A chanter, and the bottom hand notes (minus the low E, which was off only a very small bit) were spot on. A couple of the upper hand notes where a little flat, so I used a small rubber O-ring as a "tuning briddle" to shorten the tongue and bring those notes up where they needed to be. The thing works like a charm, but it is a bit hard. It's harder to blow than my homemade phragmites reeds, and the tone is not as "buzzy" or reedy as my phragmites reeds. I assum that next time I do this, maybe if I make the reed a little longer by not cutting off so much of the original tenor drone reed, then I can trim a little more from the tongue, and the tongue will be longer, having more area to vibrate, possibly causing a "buzzier", reedier tone and being easier to blow.
Does anyone have any experience/thoughts/ comments on this? I have not tried another one, becuase I don't have any more tenor reeds laying around, but if anyone can lend a helping hand on ideas, I would be willing to give it a try. I figure if I can make a nice sounding reed making a few modifications to a GHB tenor drone reed, then the hardest part is already done.........cane selection and the tongue being cut Very Happy
Anyway, any ideas?
Chad
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go, Chad, Go!

About buzziness (how's that for a new noun? :-), I agree with you that if you could make the tongue a bit thinner it should make the tone more buzzy. On other hand it would possibly also make the reed more unstable and moist sensitive, so you might end up with a reed with the same characteristics as the one you started with. Trade-off.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:28 pm    Post subject: Yes, I think your right........ Reply with quote

I think you are probably right Olle, and I was afraid that it would end up putting me right back to where I started. So I have contacted one of the reed suppliers that I found in another thread........I have not heard back from them, but hopefully I will....and that will solve my reed tube supply/ unstable phragmites reeds. By the way, do you or anyone else here have any idea how long a down-cut phragmites reed will last under average playing (4-8 hours per week)? I'm sure someone here knows, as I understand that is what was originally used in these pipes. Also, is there any "tricks" to helping make phragmites more stable for longer life? Something like boiling the cane tubes in olive oil or some other trick? I just hope the cane company I contacted will get back to me and sell me some 6mm dia. cane so I can put this whole cane/reed thing behind me once and for all and have some reliable material Very Happy
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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chad,
In general, how would you describe the sound of your modified tenor reed? Even if the sound quality is a little different, I would be interested in trying this. It would be nice to be able extend my practice time a little. I use Arundo Donax, I can usually get between 30 and 45 minutes of playing time before my chanter starts to go out of tune. More and more these days I find myself thinking about bellows.

Did you try Marion Cane and reeds for segments? Their prices are very good.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
By the way, do you or anyone else here have any idea how long a down-cut phragmites reed will last under average playing (4-8 hours per week)?


I have very little experience with phragmites reeds, sorry. It also depends on what you mean. Do you mean per session or total life length?

In the latter case, there is no limit, as far as I know. The current record holder (to my knowledge) is Stefan Ekedahl, who still plays the Phragmites reed he cut for himself in 1984, despite having crushed it and glued it together again several times.

If you mean per session I know that Stefan can play for hours, but then he takes the reed out and adjusts it a lot, between tunes. After 23 years he knows his reeds behaviours and moods very well and knows exactly what to do when ...
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:17 pm    Post subject: modified GHB tenor reed Reply with quote

Holly Molly! That is a long time for any reed! Especially crushed:D
Aaron, I will say that everytime I pull the pipe out and put in my modified reed, it is a real gut-buster to get started...........but if I spend about 30 seconds warming it up and lightly rub my thumb back and forth across the tongue to slightly press it down towards the bed..........it sings like a charm, and the pressure required to get it going is just about right Very Happy. I have not tried that particular reed for duration of stability, but after it's warmed up in the manner described above, it does seem to stay where i want it for long enough to practice the first tune I have learned "Lljugaren", over and over and over with plenty left to spare...........I am hoping that in a bellows blown rig, it will last much longer!
I am so inspired by your description of the possibities of life-span for the type of reed cane I have at my disposal Olle! Wow, if I could get that kind of service out of my reeds, I would be extremely happy! I am very suprised that he would glue back together a crushed reed. Myself, I would probably not hesitate to toss it in the trash and make up another 2 or 3 and keep messing with them, and choose the best one for the chanter and leave the other two for drone reeds, but that is very inspiring. Do you happen to know if his phragmites reeds are down-cut (like mine) or upcut?
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chad_fross



Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 37
Location: Seoul Korea

PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:22 pm    Post subject: reed supplier Reply with quote

Aaron, I have left a message with Marion two days ago, and have not heard anything back. If I don't hear anything back by the end of the week, I will send another email..................then if nothing still, I will email them. I really would like to have some arundo donax.............................but I'll still keep playing around with this modified tenor drone reed. I actually got the idea of this from two sources, one is from a Pibgorn (hornpipe) maker in the UK who helped me along through emails to build a couple of Pibgorn, and the other is from a website I came across that had instructions for building a Bohemian Boch pipes, using modified tenor drone reeds for the chanter (like the pibgorn). When I find time, I will put a sound sample or two and some pictures up somewhere and post links to the site

Chad
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