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Double Bore Chanter***UPDATED with PICS***

 
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:18 am    Post subject: Double Bore Chanter***UPDATED with PICS*** Reply with quote



I talked to Jan Winter a while back to get an opinion about making a double bore chanter. Here's what Jan said,


Hi Seth,
Double bore Swedish chanter is an exciting idea. I have toyed with the
concept myself, but haven't heard any maker that actually has tried it.
You have several possibilities:
-a double chanter per se, doubling part of/ all of the chanter holes
for
tonal/sonic/rythmic possibilities.
-a double bore with a chanter and a drone, like the french cabrette,
reducing th weight of the drone stock for en mouthblown bagpipe with
several drones.

What do you all thing about a Double bored chanter. Too much trouble to tune?? Etc...


Last edited by texasbagpiper on Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:31 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Quimbisero



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Double chanters are really neat. The one double Uilleann pipe chanter I had the pleasure to play was a gem!

It also makes a louder instrument.

Eoghan
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Olle
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have often played with an idea (in theory only, I'm not a builder) of making a double chanter (let's say E/A, like a Swedish bagpipe) where the right bore has the finger holes for the lower half of the scale, up to and including A, and the left hand bore has the finger holes for the upper half, down to B but with A as an extra hole (for the left hand pinkie).

That way, if played as if it was one chanter and with open fingering (and, as we are used to, without using the left hand pinkie), you get a drone for free - an A will always sound from at least one of the bores. And if played with a more closed fingering you would be able to play two voices.
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olle Gällmo wrote:
I have often played with an idea (in theory only, I'm not a builder) of making a double chanter (let's say E/A, like a Swedish bagpipe) where the right bore has the finger holes for the lower half of the scale, up to and including A, and the left hand bore has the finger holes for the upper half, down to B but with A as an extra hole (for the left hand pinkie).

That way, if played as if it was one chanter and with open fingering (and, as we are used to, without using the left hand pinkie), you get a drone for free - an A will always sound from at least one of the bores. And if played with a more closed fingering you would be able to play two voices.


Your Idea sounds so cool Olle. I'm going to give it a try soon and I'll let you know how it comes out, or send it your way to scrutinize it.
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Quimbisero



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olle,

What you describe is essentially a Diple. That is an Eastern European bagpipe (Dalmatian) which as this picture demonstrates bears a great deal of similarity to the Sackpipa.




Eoghan
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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texasbagpiper,

I found a "reconstrunction" (read: conjectural redaction) of a tibia utricularis. This is the bagpipe mentioned in Suetonius' "Lives of the Caesars" as being played by Emperor Nero. The fiddle not being invented yet, he was probably playing this when Rome burned - If he was playing anything at all. It sounds very much like a Swedish bagpipe, the reeds are almost exactly the same. But most importantly, it has a double chanter. I think the instrument was intentionally made to look like an ancestor of the Zampogna by whoever "reconstructed" it.

I sent a couple of photos and a sound sample to Olle a while ago, and we had a chat about it, the website I found it on seems not to feature this instrument anymore (I'm glad I downloaded when I first saw it). I could email them to you too if you'd like. It may give you some ideas for your double chanter - Let me know if you're interested. If anything, it's a pretty cool little tune the guy plays in the sample.
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First one so far, the dip in the side is where the A tone hole is drilled.. Sounds like a single chanter until you get up to the A. Then it sounds like another piper joined in...

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Olle
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks nice, and I would be very interested to try it out, but why parallel finger holes in the upper half? Swedish pipes are stronger in that half anyway - this would make it even more so. Also, it makes it difficult to play a second voice with the right hand, since the upper holes of both bores will open when you use the left hand.

But it sure looks interesting.

BTW: How do you turn a double chanter? Usually you drill the bore first and turn around that, right? That would not work for a double chanter.
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olle Gällmo wrote:
Looks nice, and I would be very interested to try it out, but why parallel finger holes in the upper half? Swedish pipes are stronger in that half anyway - this would make it even more so. Also, it makes it difficult to play a second voice with the right hand, since the upper holes of both bores will open when you use the left hand.

But it sure looks interesting.

BTW: How do you turn a double chanter? Usually you drill the bore first and turn around that, right? That would not work for a double chanter.


After I bore the tone holes off center, I center between both bores and turn... I thought the Idea was to make the upper hand with double tone holes. So the idea is to either make all the tone holes double so it sounds like two chanter going at once or just make one full side of regular tone holes and only an A tone hole on the other bore only to act as a drone on the chanter... Ok, I'll make one of both... Full double bore with all tone holes on each bore except the pinkie and I'll make one with all tone holes on one bore and just an A on the other bore.... I'll post pics when I'm done and get with Olle on trying these out...
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to try to get the bores closer togather next time, because this one has to have a 7/8" inner dia stock. I'll have to make an adapter to fit it to an existing set of pipes.
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could also try to angle the fingerholes, so they are closer, but the bores are still safely apart.
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuri wrote:
You could also try to angle the fingerholes, so they are closer, but the bores are still safely apart.


They are slightly angled but not much...
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Quimbisero



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey,

Nice work. Allow me the temerity of making another suggestion to you. Rather than angling the holes, you can use the technique I have seen used in the few double chantered Uilleann pipes I have seen. This was how I was shown to make them by an old pipesmaker in Chicago in the mid 1970s.

You start by boring a chanter bore in two separate pieces of wood. Then you cut off one side (he used a table saw with a very fine toothed blade) within about 1/8 of an inch of the bore on both pieces. This produces a smooth surface for gluing the two pieces together and places the two bores only about 1/4 inch apart after gluing up. That allows very close holes without angling and allows you to make a chanter the outside diameter of which is much closer to that of a normal chanter. Since you do the cutting to squared up pieces of wood before doing any turning, you can precisely control the distance of the blade eliminating any risk of damaging the bores.

After the glue has set you can turn to center, also without risk. Of course, you have to determine the correct center which will be midway between the two bores just as you did on the one shown here.

This method works fine and has the added advantage of making a chanter much easier to play as the holes will be much closer, requiring less of a stretch to cover.

Eoghan
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quimbisero wrote:
Hey,

Nice work. Allow me the temerity of making another suggestion to you. Rather than angling the holes, you can use the technique I have seen used in the few double chantered Uilleann pipes I have seen. This was how I was shown to make them by an old pipesmaker in Chicago in the mid 1970s.

You start by boring a chanter bore in two separate pieces of wood. Then you cut off one side (he used a table saw with a very fine toothed blade) within about 1/8 of an inch of the bore on both pieces. This produces a smooth surface for gluing the two pieces together and places the two bores only about 1/4 inch apart after gluing up. That allows very close holes without angling and allows you to make a chanter the outside diameter of which is much closer to that of a normal chanter. Since you do the cutting to squared up pieces of wood before doing any turning, you can precisely control the distance of the blade eliminating any risk of damaging the bores.

After the glue has set you can turn to center, also without risk. Of course, you have to determine the correct center which will be midway between the two bores just as you did on the one shown here.

This method works fine and has the added advantage of making a chanter much easier to play as the holes will be much closer, requiring less of a stretch to cover.

Eoghan


Right now with this chanter you dont need to strech to cover any of the tone holes , they are at a good distance not too far apart. The distance is only about a 1/4 or 5/16 and the tone holes are only slightly angled only on the left bore. I want to keep both bores in the same piece of wood. Next I'll just move the bores closer togather. Piece of cake... Cheers, Seth
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Olle
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So the idea is to either make all the tone holes double so it sounds like two chanter going at once or just make one full side of regular tone holes and only an A tone hole on the other bore only to act as a drone on the chanter...


That is also a possibility of course, but that is not what I meant. I meant half the scale on one side and the other half on the other side. As described in one of my previous posts above. Since I wrote that, we have received a new member on the forum, Yuri, with a very interesting web site. Look at this double flute of his:



See? You can play it as if it was one chanter, if you so wish, but you can also play two voices, or as one chanter with an extra A drone, depending on the fingering.
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olle Gällmo wrote:
Quote:
So the idea is to either make all the tone holes double so it sounds like two chanter going at once or just make one full side of regular tone holes and only an A tone hole on the other bore only to act as a drone on the chanter...


That is also a possibility of course, but that is not what I meant. I meant half the scale on one side and the other half on the other side. As described in one of my previous posts above. Since I wrote that, we have received a new member on the forum, Yuri, with a very interesting web site. Look at this double flute of his:



See? You can play it as if it was one chanter, if you so wish, but you can also play two voices, or as one chanter with an extra A drone, depending on the fingering.


Ok so still a double bore in the same piece of wood with left bore having left hand tone holes only with the A drilled off to the side and the bottom bore having only the right hand tone holes. Ok I think I have it. I'm also going to make a double bore chanter with full tone holes on both sides... Just sounds too cool... I'll post pics as I go... Still busy on the Gurdys too...
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JP WNC



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

texasbagpiper wrote:
Olle Gällmo wrote:
Quote:
So the idea is to either make all the tone holes double so it sounds like two chanter going at once or just make one full side of regular tone holes and only an A tone hole on the other bore only to act as a drone on the chanter...


That is also a possibility of course, but that is not what I meant. I meant half the scale on one side and the other half on the other side. As described in one of my previous posts above. Since I wrote that, we have received a new member on the forum, Yuri, with a very interesting web site. Look at this double flute of his:



See? You can play it as if it was one chanter, if you so wish, but you can also play two voices, or as one chanter with an extra A drone, depending on the fingering.


Ok so still a double bore in the same piece of wood with left bore having left hand tone holes only with the A drilled off to the side and the bottom bore having only the right hand tone holes. Ok I think I have it. I'm also going to make a double bore chanter with full tone holes on both sides... Just sounds too cool... I'll post pics as I go... Still busy on the Gurdys too...


There was some discussion on synthetic reeds in another thread and it made me think of this double bored chanter. It would seem that if you had the bottom 1/2 of the scale in one bore, the upper 1/2 in the other bore (blocked off at the end). You would be able to tailor the reeds better to the range they would play in, making it more likely for synthetic reeds to work.
.
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually play a set with the exact same disposition as the double flue pipe in the photo. It uses Gibson Fireside reeds, and they are slightly different lenght in the two chanters. (only very slightly) When playing using two drones, tonic/dominant, it sounds like a crumhorn consort, according to eye(and ear)witnesses. One day I even will drag myself to take photos of it, and try to figure out how to post them. Promise.
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biniou-kozh



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:05 am    Post subject: . Reply with quote

Is the double chanter for sale? Wink
Best Regards ///Dennis
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JNelson



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about a triple chanter pipe? one bore for the right hand, one for the left hand and one for the thumbs?
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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They play similar three-bore chanters in Slovakia and Hungary. The first bore is the 'melody' bore (abeceda) and has five fingerholes and sometimes a flea-hole too. They are referred to as four-voiced bagpipes (three bores and a drone) The second bore is called the contra bore (húčik) and sounds the low fourth when covered. The third bore is very short and has only one hole for the upper thumb. It is also closed at the end (I've never heard this bore referred to by a specific name). In an very odd way, this makes the scale a little bit similar to a swedish bagpipe when played in A (or G depending on the instrument), Especially since the contra pipe acts as a drone matching the lowest note of the abeceda - but the analogy only goes so far, and the sound is quite different.

From what I've read, having the third bore enables a more precise (and I would imagine more stable) tuning, because you never have more than a few notes per bore.

It would be very interesting to hear what a three bore configuration would sound like on a Swedish bagpipe - or at that point I guess I should say, on a bagpipe with Swedish style reeds. When looking at all of the unique (and sometimes very complicated) bagpipes around the world, I often wonder if the Swedish bagpipe's simple structure and modest size are due to a historically small number of players. ...Fewer instruments, fewer people thinking about possible alterations.
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

THere is an even rarer variety, used in the south of Hungary, I think. It has all the three bores, as above, and also a fourth. The kontra is open all the time in this version, playing the tonic, so in effect this is a permanent two-drone type. The fourth bore is the fourth below note, and since it is closed, it only sounds when the single fingerhole is open.
By the way, all of these without exception have a separate drone, playing usually two octaves below the chanter's tonic.
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Frédéric Vigouroux



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alboca from Basque country got a similar organology.
both drone/chanters are used alternatively for melody and rythm.
JP Leriche built bohas with three bore chanters in Toulouse.
listen to "la pastora" on this page :
http://kisemlev.free.fr/flash_mp3_player_F/mp3player.swf
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Tex
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When looking at all of the unique (and sometimes very complicated) bagpipes around the world, I often wonder if the Swedish bagpipe's simple structure and modest size are due to a historically small number of players. ...Fewer instruments, fewer people thinking about possible alterations.




I have never been one to not experiment but, I have to say that I think the Swedish bagpipe is the most beautiful sounding bagpipe of all the different bagpipe instruments* as it is. I play the GHB pipes and enjoy the power, tradition etc. and have listened to many other types of bagpipes but, the standard Swedish bagpipe with it's mellow sound, very sutle harmonics and the some what melancholy voice is in my mind and heart the most special of all bagpipes. Perhaps our relatives thought the same way as I do about the Swedish bagpipe, it is simple, easy to make, sounds very good...why mess around with it too much!
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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Point well taken Tex. I can't argue with that.
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