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Names of some tunes needed from a video

 
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Black Rose



Joined: 10 Apr 2011
Posts: 44
Location: Minneapolis Minnesota USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:00 am    Post subject: Names of some tunes needed from a video Reply with quote

I recorded this video a couple of years back and would like to steal a couple three tunes from it but would like to also know the names.

I'm looking for the name of the waltz played in the barn at 7:50, the first one only. Also need the name of tune played by the Nasbom's at 10:32 (Sombody's Commission I think, I found it in a collection online once and then lost the bookmark) and the two tunes played by Arto Jarvela at 12:09. I'll keep hunting, but if anyone can help I'd welcome it.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rwub1hEaiA&list=UUpM-DzvZLqU55jXm2DY9L9A&index=29
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Olle
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "waltz" at 7.50 is actually a polska, Å jänta å ja', from Värmland. Ransäter to be precise. There are lyrics to it and it is one of the most well known Swedish traditional style tunes among the general public in Sweden, since it's a common tune to play and dance to in midsummer and similar festivities. It's actually not traditional, though. It was written by F.A. Dahlgren.

The tune played by Näsboms at 10:32 is "Eklundapolska nr 3" by fiddler Viksta Lasse (actually Leonard Larsson) (1897-1983), from Viksta outside Uppsala.

I don't know the tunes played by Arto, sorry.
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Black Rose



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:32 am    Post subject: Osmonds in Sweden Reply with quote

Thanks for the help. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN8ZHmmHN44
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Olle
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't take the recited story seriously, though. The story is a classic boy-meets-girl story, about how he courts her and how they finally get married. I often play and sing it on weddings.
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Black Rose



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a followup question about tune designations. It's long and full of links to help everyone understand what I mean. My apologies but I hope it might spur some discussion in a very still forum.

Olle, you designate Å jänta å ja' a Polska, yet when I finally had the name as you suggest, it was a common and easy tune to find and my wife presented me with sheet music that designated it a Hambo or Mazurka. (Mind you, I only use sheet music to connect a name with a tune for archival purposes so I can remember my own repertoir with names attached. A lot of "folk" music is poorly or unimaginatively transcribed and often just wrongly transcribed so I like to actually hear a tune from several sources and then work out how I'm going to play it myself.) Furthermore I've listened to a lot of Hambos and Mazurkas on YouTube and elsewhere and find that even in those two categories there is a wide variation in how the tunes are interpreted, time, tempo, accent etc.

I understand my question on one level being rather basic because I just had a conversation about Irish music with a Norwegian dance instructor and she claimed Irish music just went on-and-on and all sounded the same to her. (I get that a lot in Irish and Scottish music.) And the same is true in my case to a lesser extent in discerning some of the Scandinavian dance tune types I'm learning. The band in the video I asked about for instance to my ear played Å jänta å ja' in a very smooth waltz-like style. I have seen and heard both Hambos and Mazurkas played in the same style essentially intergangeably. Because of the time signature it is possible to play most 3/4 Scandinavian tunes with a waltz feeling if that's what you' want to do. Having said that, it's fairly clear to me what a proper Pols/Polska rhythm sounds like compared to a waltz, and even more clear if you see the dance performed to the music properly. And again, though the dance being done in the barn in the video is clearly not any sort of waltz, ignoring the dance itself, to my ear, the way the band is expressing it has a very rounded feeling rather than what the Scots would call a "snap" or in our case, a Pols/Polska "pointed" interpretation. So I suppose there is a wide range at least in the US of ways the immigrant generations and re-enactors here have stylistically indulged in this "expression" of any given dance tune.

What I'm still somewhat baffled by is the designation "Hambo, or Mazurka." Hambo is obviously an entirely different dance and my question is not dance related, but tune related. My point being, it seems to me you could play most of these tunes, these 3/4 signature Pols/Polska/Rorostpols/Hambo or even most Mazurka designations interchangeably for any of those dances. In some cases the agogic stress or "pulse" or "metric accent" of the melody would be less conducive to the dance moves, and the dancers themselves may have been trained for years to listen to a familiar melody for specific melodic or rhythmic figures in the tune that they use for cues to ad-lib or choreograph set movements. But the general count and rhythm would be sufficient.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accent_(music)

A few Mazurkas are played in the Irish tradition, one common one with the Nordic traditions is The Eagle's Whistle. This tune however, by the Irish school is played like a march, all rounded off, and nothing like either a real Polish mazurka or any of the Scandinavian versions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_E6ctLOYwE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36J57x_OZj0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jun1TB5jYc
(As a slip jig or slide in 9/8 or 12/Cool

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChD--2q6hkQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEawTRm9X5U

Apart from being a common beginner tune, The Irish/Scottish Eagle's Whistle is played in none of these instances anything like a Mazurka. This one comes close, but it took a nyckleharpa to get it there:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xY4LDiffVxo

Couldn't find The Eagle's Whistle but this is a Norwegian Mazurka, which to me sounds like a waltz complete with the "oom pa pa bass line.":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8jIxsASrbU&playnext=1&list=PL32BECA936116EFF8&feature=results_main

And another Mazurka, again sounding like a very pointed Viennese waltz to my ear, only this version is a bit more "snappy."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-VVjK4urLY

So my question is this: even given that the Pols/Polska, Hambo and Mazurka and so forth may clearly be distinctly different dances, it seems to me that a Pols/Polska and a Hambo could almost use the same tune. The Mazurka however seems far more accented on the 2 and 3 beats like a waltz, so it would be less universal. But still, most of the tunes designated in 3/4 could be expressed more or less properly for any of these nearly of these Gammeldanses interchangeably. So what is it that ultimately determines how a composer or tradition in general, labels any given tune as belonging to one specific category of dance?

This is further complicated by the fact that many tunes I find, particularly older ones, often the more ancient or "traditional" ones, often have odd measures, extra measures, short measures, or melodic phrases that don't seem to comply with normal mathematics.

Or, again, case in point, Å jänta å ja' is by one source designated a Polska, and another as a Hambo or Mazurka. It can be played as Mazurka easily by turning it into that waltz emphasis. But I also find Hambo's being danced and played at the same slower speed with the same accent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb51ME9XWtc

Or at breakneck speed with a very sharp snap and bright emphasis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DxJiqTYTqI

The Schottish is very clear to me. The Reinlander is fairly clear to me. But I'm now writing new tunes, and find I've actually written a number of tunes back in my youth, the mid-1970's and into the 80's and 90's, that I had no idea what to do with in the Scottish or later, Irish idioms. Ironically, I now find I have a number of them which can be well expressed as a Pols/Polska/Hambo whatever. I just don't know how to designate them because as I say, I think you could play them nearly interchangeably for any one of those dances, and since there is no tradition associating these new tunes with any given dance, I have no idea what I should designate them to be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX3DIndVnpw

Trygve's Schottish, major version--way at the end of the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7tQcezFuVI

Trygve's Schottish minor version, I like this key better. Again, last tune in a set of two in the video.

Trygve's is one of the first new tunes I'm writing ang going to record, eventually a bit more impressively than the quick video notes I've linked here. As I say, it's easy to understand it's a Schottish. When I get into the 3/4 signature tunes, well, I get more and more unclear what to call my tunes. (Actually 3/2 or 12/8 notation is easier to score "snap" correctly, but not commonly used.) I'm hoping to produce something of a "Nordic Roots" version of Gammeldans along the lines of something between Swop and Hedningarna with a bit of Rammstein thrown in in places. It's still brewing in my head. But I'd really like it to be danceable when I'm finished, as much as I tend to listen to music as music for the sake of music, I'd still like to see people dance to it.

For reference, here's what I did to the classic psychedelic pop hit White Rabbit or the Scottish and Irish favorites Gallant Murray or Follow me up to Carlow:

http://www.myspace.com/blackroseroisindubh

And to further confuse matters, this is some of my other projects:

http://www.myspace.com/phantompipeband


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Olle
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me first retract, or modify, my previous remark. I should not have been so categorical in stating that Å jänta å ja *is* a polska. As you say, many tunes can be played either way - as a waltz, polska (and *many* variants thereof), mazurka or hambo. Å jänta å ja is often played too fast to be used as a polska, but I happen to play it slower, as something close to a hambo or bondpolska (which to me are almost the same, though the dances are different).

So, did the composer of Å jänta å ja think of it as a polska, a hambo, a mazurka, a waltz or something else? I don't know, but in this particular case we could have known, since the composer is known. Usually we don't know the source and, consequently, the tunes may turn up in different versions.

There are some traditional and very well known tunes after nyckelharpa legend Ceylon Wallin for example (note *after*, as in not necessarily *by*), which by most players are played as bondpolskas, but in some corners of Uppland are played more as slängpolskas (i.e. straighter, and quicker). It is a common pedagogical trick (I learnt it from Erik Ask-Upmark) to teach complex (rythmically) polskas as a mazurka or something similar first, until the melody has been learnt and only then start to mess up the rythm. Polskas from the west of Sweden, for example, with a short first beat, are best taught in this way, in my opinion.

In other words, it is what you (or your dancing audience) want it to be. YMMV
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Black Rose



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for you excellent summary. As you point out, I have noticed some dances are done with a-rhythmic counting, meaning one of the beats may be longer or shorter than strict mathematics dictate. I also notice this can shift so that the accents changes every other measure or just in certain parts of the dance. You Tube is quite the blessing in this but sometimes offers too many alternatives to be sure.

In Highland tradition this over-accenting is done in the Strathspey (technically a Strathspey-style reel) where the first beat of every measure in the piping and Highland dance tradition is actually longer than the rest, and the third beat is just held as long as possible before actually going over the mathematical count. It creates a Strong weak medium weak pulse. In Lowland Scottish styles Strathspey's are played without the first beat over-accented, and this ranges from Scottish national styles to Cape Breton styles and Shetland styles, where the same tunes are much more rounded off. But in all Scottish traditions there is the often use the "snap" where for example, almost every quarter note that is dotted is really played as if it has two or three dots and every cut eighth note is really played as if it were a sixteenth or thirty-second note, meaning every dotted or "held" not is in reality held so long that it steals time from it's cut companion, and the cut notes are all so short as to become gracenotes of almost no time value.

One feature of Swedish Polskas I often hear is called a "tachum" in Highland parlance, and consists of a very very cut note on a downbeat that is not in fact the melody note, but more of a gracenote, followed by the actual melody note that would normally be on an upbeat, but because the downbeat note is so dramatically chopped, it is shifted ahead almost to the downbeat. At least for me, when I hear these played it becomes immediately clear what is going on and where the actual beats fall compared to where the beat is being cheated. Not so clear in print.

So what I mean about folk music in general being transcribed poorly or incorrectly, is that the best you usually find is the notes down in the right order. The Irish corrections in fact often just do that, a string of straight eighth notes or whatever, and the player is just expected to wing it or throw in "expression" and embellishments however personal or regional styles dictate. If you looked at the manuscript you would think it was written for a very rudimentary piano plunker, but nobody but rank novices and pretenders would ever play it that way. In Highland piping they went to the opposite extreme and regimented every grace note and developed a tutor-student tradition that regimented how every tune would be played whether it was notated correctly or not.

The worst era for "folk"music all over the world in my humble opinion, is when the Renaissance ended, the quacky reed instruments died out, and the Baroque period began to steal the tunes wholesale, and modern instruments starting with the fiddles, stole them from the regional and national pipers. Folk music became in many countries a state-regulated and regimented function of the officially patronized Academic musical gestalt, collectors and "ethnomusicologists" produced official books of "folk" music and however well meant, in trying to preserve the old traditions for the most part replaced the original interpretations and techniques used to present the melodies on a specifically ancient musical instrument, with Baroque violin or recorder techniques and straight-ahead-flat-mathematical expressions from the Academic schools of music. The era also began the introduction of the chromatic mind-set and a scale tempered to be equally out of tune in all keys so the composer could pick any note on the staff and write a piece in that key, and every instrument in the ensemble could play it in that key. That's THE MAN taming the creative process so it could original in an entirely cerebral context and them force a mechanical system of music to reproduce that concept.

This replace the truly "folk" notion of whittling some instrument out of a local tree, and then seeing what cool noises is can make, and from this experimentation and natural proclivities of man and instrument, producing music as God meant it to be.

The next phase of the "folk" music metamorphosis was even worse, when the button boxes and harmoniums and accordions stole the music from even the fiddlers, and replaced just temperment and bendy-notes and individualized modal, highly personal pipe/natural scale sensibilites, with the fixed, chromatic, one-size-fits-all notions of the keyboard and by then "Classical" performance and compositional ethos. Just pick a note of the scale and start a tune in that key. Doesn't matter. Push a button, out comes a note. Every time. All the time. Any weather. Any idiot can make it work any time he wants. No understanding of the device was necessary.

I'm having some custom drones made and Alban Faust was telling me you can play in the key of G on an E/A chanter. I realized you could if you thought you were playing bassoon or clarinet or recorder. Just start your scale three notes up and you're in G, and since you've got a chromatic instrument, if your brain works that way, just sharpen or flatten the notes to make it work. For the sake of brevity I'll just say that's so so wrong from a piping perception that elaborating more would likely insult somebody I really respect. Or possibly several. So I'll end my rant there and go on to enjoying the Saint Patrick's Day weekend.

Since my pub band's (Roisin Dubh/Black Rose) drummer is in the Bahamas we have no gigs and I'm not scheduled to do anything this year for the first time in my adult piping life for the whole holiday. So I'm learning Norwegian tunes on Swedish pipes, and Swediosh tunes on uilleann pipes, and trying to find a place to get prime rib instead of corned beef and cabbage.

Slàinte and Skoal
Royce


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