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Synthetic Reed Project ~ Finished 1-3-2011
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:35 pm    Post subject: Synthetic Reed Project ~ Finished 1-3-2011 Reply with quote

I've heard several people talk about synthetic reeds but the only one's I have ever seen were made by Leif Erickson (did I spell that right?).

The goal is to make a synthetic reed that is easy to replicate every time with the use of modern molding. I've been making these reeds for Swedish bagpipes as well as other bagpipes for years but never in a consistent manor. This project is more about making consistent reed blanks that come out the same every time, because making them by hand produces small differences in each reed. Also I hope to tweak my existing design to sound as close to cane as possible, or at least a clean, crisp tone.

I poured the first half of the reed mold and am waiting for it to cure to pour the second half.

I will post pics of the casted reeds when I finish the project. Few weeks.

Seth


Last edited by texasbagpiper on Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seth, you know I have worked out a synthetic reed that works. (Haven't made a sackpipa yet, but have used them on Hungarian pipes, which have the same type of chanter reeds.) Point is, while I was trying it with the usual styrene strips, it just doesn't work, as the styrene is too soft, and refuses to work across the range. Now, when I got onto carbon fibre, that was a different story. It's still not easy, but yes, it does work. And of course you can always use cane tongues, too.
For those that haven't seen these beasts yet, here goes:
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc226/Yuri-photos/CIMG0813.jpg
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc226/Yuri-photos/CIMG0003.jpg
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuri wrote:
Seth, you know I have worked out a synthetic reed that works. (Haven't made a sackpipa yet, but have used them on Hungarian pipes, which have the same type of chanter reeds.) Point is, while I was trying it with the usual styrene strips, it just doesn't work, as the styrene is too soft, and refuses to work across the range. Now, when I got onto carbon fibre, that was a different story. It's still not easy, but yes, it does work. And of course you can always use cane tongues, too.
For those that haven't seen these beasts yet, here goes:
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc226/Yuri-photos/CIMG0813.jpg
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc226/Yuri-photos/CIMG0003.jpg



Those are cool. I'd like to see a picture of them from the side. I have actually got mine to play the whole scale with the styrene but I'd prefer a crisper sound. The reeds I've made in the past used a variety of materials for the tongues, etc, but I'm hoping styrene will work. Although, I do plan on trying the carbon too, and maybe a few other materials too. I'll post some pics after I get the cast made.


Last edited by texasbagpiper on Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here:
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc226/Yuri-photos/CIMG0814.jpg
And, for that matter, the body:
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc226/Yuri-photos/CIMG0815.jpg
I sand away the top of the body at a gentle curve, rather than bend the tongues. I sort of feel that it's somehow neater.
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where do you get the carbon fibre and how thick is it?
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's made here, in NZ. (We are a first world country, you know) The company is called rivercarbon, either .com or more probably .co.nz
There is a photo of a sheet of this stuff, as I use it, right on their front page on their site. With a 10cent coin lying on it. The pic shows the other side of the sheet, it's mirror-smooth.
The thickness is a bit tricky, as the rough side is rough. When I sand it down for the chanter reed, it's around something like 0.1-0.2mm. Really paper thin.
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just poured the second half of the mold today, so it will be ready later tonight.

Here is a picture of a wooden prototype with a carbon fibre tongue. I don't know if the carbon is going to be the best choice for the tongue so I'm going to experiment with different materials. The carbon works well and is in tune throughout the scale, but it has a different sound than cane.

I decided to make my own carbon fibre sheets with carbon and resin so I can get the right thickness. So far I have made a sheet about .010 thick. Carbon fibre seems to work at thinner consistencies compared to styrene or cane. I think this has to do with the stiffness of the material, and maybe the resin use to cure the fibre.


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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These reeds have always worked great in my Uilleann bass and baritone drones, as well as the Swedish drones and even the chanter. The new design is a bit different from my previous ones, but overall the same idea. I'm still trying different tongue materials, etc to get that cane sound we all love, lol.

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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Casted reed blanks.
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Tex
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you think using sheet plastic might be a better option than carbon fiber. Like what they use on the Easy Drones.
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tex wrote:
Do you think using sheet plastic might be a better option than carbon fiber. Like what they use on the Easy Drones.


I haven't had good results with styrene yet. I have a few different types I would like to try yet. The carbon works and is in tune but overblows way too easy. You can overblow 4-5 notes above top E on the A chanter. Cane tongues have always worked well in this type of reed, but the goal is 100% synthetic. Seth


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Högfeldt



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Seth, welcome in the exclusive club of säckpipa makers trying to make synthetic reed Smile can't wait till one of us acutally succeed
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Chrischan



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey friends,

I know who can. A new young Bagpipemaker from Germany. The reeds sounds really great. Sadly there are no pics of his säckpipa at the moment, but you can be sure they look great. Moreover the "english" button don't work.

Here is the link:
Dudelsackmanufactur
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Their have been synthetic reeds made that play in tune. I have even, in the short time over they years that I have messed with it, made some that play in tune. The thing is, they don't have the sound quality of cane, and that's what we are working towards. Seth

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Högfeldt



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's possible to obtain a tonal quality very close to cane reeds using a cane tongue - here is one i made some year ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFTvvHl1SPU - It's more stable than a traditional reed, but it has its problems.

This one I made with a composite material tounge, a material made of fibers and resin - the most stable thing i've made, and the tonal quality is quite close to traditional cane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfC5O9mRtT8
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Högfeldt wrote:
It's possible to obtain a tonal quality very close to cane reeds using a cane tongue - here is one i made some year ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFTvvHl1SPU - It's more stable than a traditional reed, but it has its problems.

This one I made with a composite material tounge, a material made of fibers and resin - the most stable thing i've made, and the tonal quality is quite close to traditional cane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfC5O9mRtT8



When I say synthetic reed, I'm really talking about a fully synthetic reed, without a cane tongue. I've used lots of different stuff to make the tongues, carbon fibre, cane, plastics of all sorts, wood, etc. I even used glass fibre years ago back in the early 2000's when I first started making synthetic reeds for the sackpipa, but it lacks the true sound of cane.

The synthetic Sackpipa reeds I was making around 2004-2005 were somewhat modeled after the synthetic reeds made by Leif Erikkson, who was the first, I believe, to make synthetic reeds for the Sackpipa. If you have ever seen his synthetics, they kind of look like a small Shepherd Highland drone reed, the original black Shepherd's.

The reason everybody is wanting a plastic reed is due to the fact that people get tired of messing with reeds, spring tongues, adding hairs, etc. That is why I invented the Swedish Hybrid reed, which I hope will revolutionize semi-synthetic construction as well as maintain that true sound of cane that cannot be beat. It allows the tongue to be sprung without a hair, and just a turn of a screw. I'm still going to work on a fully synthetic reed that rivals cane, as I have done for many years, but until then I'm going to perfect my invention of the Hybrid reed, which I expect will be copied by others. Cheers, Seth Hamon

P.S. Keep working at it, you may come up with something great.


[/quote]
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Högfeldt



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When I say synthetic reed, I'm really talking about a fully synthetic reed, without a cane tongue


I know, but you talked about a hybrid reed also - I suspect you are going for the same recipe; not a cane body with synth tongue Smile

Quote:
The reason everybody is wanting a plastic reed is due to the fact that people get tired of messing with reeds, spring tongues, adding hairs, etc. That is why I invented the Swedish Hybrid reed, which I hope will revolutionize semi-synthetic construction as well as maintain that true sound of cane that cannot be beat


Oh I know, I've been getting complaints for years, hehe - I made the composite reed to help current players, but also new pipers (most new pipers have been avoiding säckpipa in Denmark, mainly because of the reed problems, using other non-Scandinavian pipes instead).

Quote:
P.S. Keep working at it, you may come up with something great.


I'm actually really satisfied with my synth reed - I like the tonal quality and the ease of tuning. The only drawback is the price of the tongue material - but, I think it's absolutely worth it! (guess they will last for very long, and just to avoid the problems of last-minute-concert-tuning-panic).
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've noticed synthetic reeds are harder to keep steady too. Like in your second video where the drone is out of tune. I've had the same problems, mainly with the plastic and carbon tongues, cane not so much. I'm going to laminate different pieces of thin fabric between two pieces of carbon fibre and see if I can mellow the sound out a bit. Experimentation is what its all about. Took Edison 2000 tries to get the light-bulb filament right. Seth


I forgot to mention. Carbon fibre is easy to make. Paint the fabric with resin and a paint brush, then squeeze it between two pieces of plexi-glass that has been sprayed with a silicone mold release and then put it in a vice and squeeze the crap out of it. That's it. If it's too thin, then add fillers, thin fabric, etc.
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Högfeldt



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, the drone is off because i fiddled around with the reed and never retuned the drone for the video (a quick video to my cousin, who stated that if I played that tune, he would buy a set of pipes.. he never did), not because of the reed being unstable Smile
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Högfeldt



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(just for the sake of it, here's a photo of my synthetic reeds)


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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are mine. I use these same bodies to make synthetic reeds for Highland Bagpipe drones, Smallpipe drones, Uilleann drones, and Swedish chanter and drone reeds. In this particular picture they have plastic tongues, and are in the smallpipe setup.

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Högfeldt



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wauw, they look huge - what is your bore diameter? in chanter/drone and in stock?
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Högfeldt wrote:
Wauw, they look huge - what is your bore diameter? in chanter/drone and in stock?


LOL, its just the picture that makes them look so big. I can adjust the bore diameter from as small as 1mm up to 5mm. This is done while casting.

Here is my inverted design with carbon fibre tongue. The tongue is heat set.



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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the reed in the chanter for a better size comparison.

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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was digging through old boxes of piping stuff and found one of my old synthetic sackpipa reeds. I popoed it into my G chanter and it played the full scale pretty right on key, I popped it into my A chanter and it also played right on key. This is yet another modified version of a reed design inspired by the writings of David Daye. I think I may modify my newer design with some of the aspects of this older design. I'm surprised how well it sounds with a styrene plastic tongue. I never expected to get a good sound from styrene after some of my previous tests. Seth

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MatthewVanitas
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hate to interrupt, but saw your pics: so you're getting orders for aquamarine sackpipa now??? Confused


In any case, the sooner one of you guys comes up with a working reed the sooner I can stop mucking around with cane, so back to work you go Seth...
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatthewVanitas wrote:
Hate to interrupt, but saw your pics: so you're getting orders for aquamarine sackpipa now??? Confused


In any case, the sooner one of you guys comes up with a working reed the sooner I can stop mucking around with cane, so back to work you go Seth...


I've had working synthetic reeds or semi-synthetic reeds for years. Hogfeldt also has a synthetic reed he has recently developed that seem to have promise. The big push is to find something that is comparable to cane. I've come to the conclusion that cane is cane and the goal should be to make a synthetic that is in tune and sounds good and compliments that sound of cane. I'm looking at my old reed design that I played with from a few years ago and I think it has promise. Look at how far synthetic reeds have come in the Scottish bag-piping world. Give it a few some time, some years, and I think we will look back at what we have now and say, " those reeds are primitive now." I would spend more time on this stuff but I have almost non-stop orders and never seem to get a chance to breath. I'm building 8 sets right now. CRAZY!!!!!!!!!

LOL, I just found an old picture from early 2000 of one of my first attempts at making a Sackpipa chanter. I think it was made of Ramin. I have come a long ways since then. The other reamers in the photo are Uilleann Pipe and Scottish Border Pipe.
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MatthewVanitas
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The big push is to find something that is comparable to cane. I've come to the conclusion that cane is cane and the goal should be to make a synthetic that is in tune and sounds good and compliments that sound of cane.


Yeah, myself I'm less dead-set on something that sounds exactly like cane so much as something that sounds good and works. If a plastic reed has good harmonics, keeps tune, etc. I'd be happy even if it were audibly distinct from cane. I think at that point we're practically getting into value judgements, especially if it's tone where a non expert would say "they both sound good, but are slightly different from each other."


Quote:
I'm building 8 sets right now. CRAZY!!!!!!!!!


Dag; are all 8 cast-resin? Has your casting really caught on amongst sackpipa buyers? I still think it was an awfully clever idea, and glad to hear that it may be paying off the R&D hassle.
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is my most current synthetic reed for the Swedish bagpipe. This reed corrects some of the problems the earlier designs had. Its a mixture of the best aspects of my newest attempts and the older designs I've made over the years. Hopefully the reeds made by Magnus and I, although different, will continue to develop just as synthetic reeds in the Highland bagpipe world have, and others will join in on the hunt for a better reed.

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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seth,
Would you be interested in making and selling a synthetic reed to be tried in a set of Faust pipes?
I'm very interested to see how these work, my own experiments haven't met with much success.
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