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Resin Sackpipa Project Finished 6-24-2010
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:01 am    Post subject: Resin Sackpipa Project Finished 6-24-2010 Reply with quote



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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seth,
How does the shrinkage affect the diameter of the bore - or did it?
Once you have a working system in place to produce these efficiently in larger quantities what do you anticipate the costs being?

My reason for the second question is that a lot of people (who mainly look at things like this from a GHB perspective) have asked where they can find 'practice' chanters at a low cost so that they can learn.

Due to the relatively low volume of the Swedish bagpipe, a practice instrument isn't really necessary, but for someone who wants to try the milk without buying the whole cow these could be the best way to get started. Like I said before you could potentially provide a doorway into the world of Swedish music for a whole new generation of pipers with these.
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Whisteul



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed, I would surely be one of these people Wink

By the way, do you have some pictures of the other resin parts (stocks, drone...) ?
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seth, instead of moving the holes, you can equally make them smaller, leaving them where they are. This way they'll sit in the same comfortable nook. I'd probably opt for this, rather than moving.

As to practice chanters, there can easily be one designed with 5 mm bore, or even 4, though in this case it will be truly practice only. I'd guess that the overall lenght will not be significantly different, my guess is that it would be a bit longer, and the fingeholes can once again stay where they are, only the sizes altered. That could only be worked out by experiment, as in drilling small pilot holes, then enlarging until right.
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Olle
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Seth, instead of moving the holes, you can equally make them smaller, leaving them where they are. This way they'll sit in the same comfortable nook. I'd probably opt for this, rather than moving.


Seth should try what works best for him and his chanters of course, but I see two possible drawbacks with what you propose, Yuri.

1. Swedish pipes are very forgiving when it comes to strange fingerings, thanks to the large finger holes. Open or closed fingering does not affect tuning much. Smaller finger holes would require more strict fingering.

2. Swedish pipes have lower volume in the lower half of the scale. This is sometimes a problem in that it can be difficult for a non-trained ear to follow the melody if it jumps a lot within the scale. Making the finger holes smaller in the lower half would make this worse I think.
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whisteul wrote:
Indeed, I would surely be one of these people Wink

By the way, do you have some pictures of the other resin parts (stocks, drone...) ?


Not yet, I'm still building the molds to make the other parts. I hope to have them ready early in March at the latest. Seth
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aaron K. Holt wrote:
Seth,
How does the shrinkage affect the diameter of the bore - or did it?
Once you have a working system in place to produce these efficiently in larger quantities what do you anticipate the costs being?

My reason for the second question is that a lot of people (who mainly look at things like this from a GHB perspective) have asked where they can find 'practice' chanters at a low cost so that they can learn.

Due to the relatively low volume of the Swedish bagpipe, a practice instrument isn't really necessary, but for someone who wants to try the milk without buying the whole cow these could be the best way to get started. Like I said before you could potentially provide a doorway into the world of Swedish music for a whole new generation of pipers with these.


Actually the bore didn't shrink at all. It's dead on 6mm. I'm going to try and leave the next chanter in the mold until its fully cured and see if it has any shrinkage. The resin I use says it has little to no shrinkage so I may find it works better if I leave it alone until its fully cured.

I'm not sure about the price yet. I've contemplated many different ideas in this realm but haven't came to a decision yet. It depends on if I'm going to have the bags custom made like a Canmore or Gannoway synthetic to lower the cost. Most likely I will continue to use the leather bags I make myself. I do know they will be a good deal cheaper than a handmade wooden set. Seth
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuri wrote:
Seth, instead of moving the holes, you can equally make them smaller, leaving them where they are. This way they'll sit in the same comfortable nook. I'd probably opt for this, rather than moving.

As to practice chanters, there can easily be one designed with 5 mm bore, or even 4, though in this case it will be truly practice only. I'd guess that the overall lenght will not be significantly different, my guess is that it would be a bit longer, and the fingeholes can once again stay where they are, only the sizes altered. That could only be worked out by experiment, as in drilling small pilot holes, then enlarging until right.


I thought of that too. I think I'm going to stick with Olle's suggestion but I'm also going to try one with a different hole size.

Another thing the first generation chanter has is a smaller low E hole. It's only about a 64th smaller than my usual hole and it still requires tape or something to tune the hole as you see on most Swedish bagpipes.

I may go back to the original hole size on the 2nd generation chanter but I don't see much of a difference either way. Seth
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olle is right . I still think it would work in this case, very simply because the holes need to be exactly as much smaller as they are when taped up. If they work with the tape, they will work drilled to the same area opening. But in general I agree with the points raised.
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Anders Jackson
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuri wrote:
Olle is right . I still think it would work in this case, very simply because the holes need to be exactly as much smaller as they are when taped up. If they work with the tape, they will work drilled to the same area opening. But in general I agree with the points raised.


Well, Olle had some arguments about this with Alban Faust, which used much smaller holes. But I really don't know how much difference there was. Olle might give some clues here Smile
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MatthewVanitas
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

texasbagpiper wrote:
It depends on if I'm going to have the bags custom made like a Canmore or Gannoway synthetic to lower the cost. Most likely I will continue to use the leather bags I make myself. I do know they will be a good deal cheaper than a handmade wooden set. Seth


I recently ran across your project, and have been tracking it with much interest.

I was going to vote for a good sythetic bag to keep with the spirit of modernism and durability. However, I understand that there still isn't a problem-free synthetic reed set invented for the sackpipa, so I suppose full-synth isn't yet an option...

Out of curiosity, what would be the motive for sticking with your leather bags? It seems rather laborious compared to using a synthetic bag, even if the synthetics are made in custom runs for efficiency.

As Yuri (posting above) has seen on Dunsire's forum, I've been considering a variety on non-GHB pipes, and your synthetic Swedes seem like an interesting and durable option given how much I travel. Plus the possibilities for getting some chromatic notes with cross-fingering is appealing.
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Anders Jackson
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatthewVanitas wrote:

Out of curiosity, what would be the motive for sticking with your leather bags? It seems rather laborious compared to using a synthetic bag, even if the synthetics are made in custom runs for efficiency.

Maybe step on the way to a pair of "real" wood and leather Svensk säckpipa Smile

Quote:

As Yuri (posting above) has seen on Dunsire's forum, I've been considering a variety on non-GHB pipes, and your synthetic Swedes seem like an interesting and durable option given how much I travel. Plus the possibilities for getting some chromatic notes with cross-fingering is appealing.


Cross-fingering is not possible on a Svensk säckpipa, as finger holes are to large for that. The large holes gives the säckpipa the possibilities of "free" fingering, which is not possible on pipes with smaler finger holes.

So it could be a nice set of pipes, but it would not be a swedish one.
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MatthewVanitas
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anders Jackson wrote:

Maybe step on the way to a pair of "real" wood and leather Svensk säckpipa Smile


Hmm, but what's the actual advantage of leather over synth? If leather somehow makes the bag handle better I could see it being an "upgrade", but if it's not why add the expense and maintenance hassle of a traditional pipe if the chanters are of modern material anyway?

Quote:

Cross-fingering is not possible on a Svensk säckpipa, as finger holes are to large for that. The large holes gives the säckpipa the possibilities of "free" fingering, which is not possible on pipes with smaler finger holes.


Ah, I misinterpreter Mr Gallmo's article here on "Extensions": http://olle.gallmo.se/sackpipa/constrext.php?lang=en

When I saw the phrase "It is now possible to play in the keys of A-minor, A-major, F#-minor, D-major, G-major and E-minor. Being able to play in D and G without having to swap chanters is particularly useful."

... my mind automatically jumped to cross-fingering, but if these chromatics are accomplished through half-holing, free-fingering, etc, the end result is similar. I'm just impressed that such a simple pipe can get such a variety of keys. For the kind of music I play, those above modal possibilities would be plenty. Granted, I understand those are on a modified chanter, but still.
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Olle
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatthewVanitas wrote:

Hmm, but what's the actual advantage of leather over synth? If leather somehow makes the bag handle better I could see it being an "upgrade", but if it's not why add the expense and maintenance hassle of a traditional pipe if the chanters are of modern material anyway?


I haven't tried that many synthetic bags but they have all felt different to me. Too elastic. Leather feels steadier somehow. But that's just a matter of getting used to, of course.

What about synthetic bags and moisture control, though? Leather is nice in that it can be made airtight but still suck up moisture. I know that goretex is supposed to do that too, but I have no personal experience. Anyone?

Quote:

When I saw the phrase "It is now possible to play in the keys of A-minor, A-major, F#-minor, D-major, G-major and E-minor. Being able to play in D and G without having to swap chanters is particularly useful."

... my mind automatically jumped to cross-fingering, but if these chromatics are accomplished through half-holing, free-fingering, etc, the end result is similar. I'm just impressed that such a simple pipe can get such a variety of keys. For the kind of music I play, those above modal possibilities would be plenty. Granted, I understand those are on a modified chanter, but still.


All those keys are possible by just having a double hole for C/C# (under the upper hand long finger), a thumbhole for the lower hand thumb (G) and one for the lower hand pinkie (D). No half-covering necessary and these "extensions" are so common today that I don't think many of us consider them extensions anymore.
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can make one leather bag for about $25 cost, so its much cheaper for me to make the bags out of leather than Gore-Tex or any other reasonably aesthetic synthetic material. That's the reason I think I will stick with leather over a synthetic. If I do end up using a synthetic it would probably raise my costs, resulting in a higher price to the consumer unless I can find a source for inexpensive durable synthetic bags. Also, I use a no rivet no stitch bag making style that cuts my bag making time down big-time. Cheers, Seth
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S. I still have one more chanter to make before I mail them out. Sorry its taking so long. Seth
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Yuri
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I can't say that my bags cost $25, they still are cheaper than synthetics would be. The whole thing on synths is a bit overrated.
(having said that, just once I HAVE made a bag from vinyl, on special order. Well, not MADE, had it made, and watched the process to make sure that it will work. It has cost about NZ415. All I can say is that it is GHASTLY. There were unargueble reasons why it had to be made like that, but the result, while useable, (still being heavily used after some 2 years' wear), is something I would not put under my arm at any cost. It's like playing an exceptionally bumpy, squeeky, all hard corners sort of plastic wineskin.You know, from one of those cheapo wine casks, the "Chateau le Cardboard".)
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Tex
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seth, the chanter you mailed arrived today. It looks very nice and feels very nice. I will have to make a reed for this chanter. After I have the chanter reeded and have had a chance to play the chanter I look forward to sharing more with you. Thank You for giving me the opportunity test one of your chanters.
Thanks! Tex
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Tex, I think you got the one that I tried to mix the colors on ( its the top on in the above picture a few posts up) . It looks all swirly near the bell of the chanter. I think you got the second generation with the holes moved. A couple of guys got the first and some got the second. I figured you guys had reeds since everybody uses the same dimensions for E/A sets, if you need a reed I can make one for you. Reedmaking is my least favorite part of pipemaking. Olle and Nic, I haven't sent your chanters out yet but they will be in the mail in a few days. I decided to make you guys second generation chanters since I will have to be shipping them international. I just haven't had the time to fill out the customs paperwork yet. I'm going to list them as a gift to try and avoid you guys having to pay customs fees. Cheers, Seth

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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please don't judge my grammar by my last post. I was in a hurry, LOL. Seth
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Nic



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem Seth, as I am a fisherman piper, I am very patient Wink

Thank you in advance !

Nic
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Jonathan



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had a very busy month at work and had forgotten about this project, so I had a nice surprise yesterday when one of Seth's chanters showed up in my mailbox.

Thanks for letting me try this out. I agree that it looks and feels very nice; this one has a couple of darker streaks in the resin, reminiscent of wood-grain.

The Eriksson set I play is in D/G, but after a few slight adjustments I was able to get one of my reeds from that set working in this chanter, which is pitched A/E. With this reed, the chanter plays best in tune with itself between E and Eb; I can't push the reed in any further without trimming it, so like Tex I'll also be making a new reed for the chanter in an attempt to bring it up to pitch.

The tone is a bit more strident than my Eriksson chanter, but this comes as no surprise; the Eriksson set is made of birch, which is on the softer/lighter end of the hardwoods. Seth's resin chanter weighs in at 61.3 grams sans reed, while the Eriksson chanter is only 43.1, even though it's about 30 mm longer and has a larger outside diameter. The density and hardness of the resin is probably closer to that of ebony or rosewood.

I'm thinking of making a shorter slide joint for my drone as well, so I'll be able to swap it and play the set in E/A with this chanter. My D drone won't push in far enough to play in tune with it.

Nice work, Seth! I'm impressed with the quality of the casting, considering the low-tech approach and shop-made mold and tooling. It's nice to see the ingenuity you've applied to the work you're doing, and I look forward to seeing the rest of the line (stocks, drones, and bags) come together.
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Aaron K. Holt
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll second that.
Good job Seth!

I the package arrived while I was away, so I'm a little behind everyone else. I think it's great. I've noticed that the reed in this chanter locks up a lot less than the one in my G/D chanter - did anyone ever notice a difference like that between an A/E and G/D set?
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aaron K. Holt wrote:
I'll second that.
Good job Seth!

I the package arrived while I was away, so I'm a little behind everyone else. I think it's great. I've noticed that the reed in this chanter locks up a lot less than the one in my G/D chanter - did anyone ever notice a difference like that between an A/E and G/D set?



Thanks for the good word Aaron. Some of you guys got the 1st generation and Some got the 2nd. The first generation needs tape on all the bottom hand holes. The tone holes were moved on the 2nd generation to correct this. I think Olle and Tex are the only ones that got the 2nd generation, although I doubt they have received them yet. They should have theirs withing a week or two depending on mail delivery times.

The drone mold is almost finished and then I will move to the blowpipe followed by the stocks. Soon I will be finished, and I will send a second generation chanter to those who got the "test sample" first generation, Just remind me as I'm super busy. Cheers, Seth
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Olle and Nic's chanters are in the mail as of today.
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texasbagpiper
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first half of the drone mold is finished, I'm going to make the first cast tonight and see how it turns out. The mold looks great. I'll post a picture as soon as it's done. Seth
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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

texasbagpiper wrote:
see how it turns out.

No pun intended right?
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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aaron K. Holt wrote:
texasbagpiper wrote:
see how it turns out.

No pun intended right?



LOL, really the only thing that will mess up is the casted piece if all the air bubbles are not removed from the resin. It came out just fine. I still have to make molds for the other half of the drone, the blowpipe, a 2" stock, and a 3" stock. I'm being a little slow on the mold making but I plan on knocking it out now that college is out for a few months, and I'm only building prosthetic legs once a week this summer. I'm going to have lots of time on my hands.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This project is coming along slowly. For the blowpipe I'm going to use the same mold as the bottom half of the drone. Instead of the top part of the drone the blowpipe will have a wooden mouthpiece that slides down into it just like the drone. I haven't decided if I'm going to make it a fixed or adjustable mouthpiece. I'm making the mouthpiece out of wood because I think it is more pleasing to the mouth than plastic resin cast, especially for those that bite and chew on the mouthpieces. I think the first full resin set will be playing in the next few weeks. All I have left to do is make a mold for the stocks. I can't wait to have this finished so I can get started on my Uilleann chanter mold.

Also, this resin turns very well, so I may be able to add threaded ferrules and mounts to the plastic. Another neat thing is, I will be able to make the pipes in many colors. I'm still trying to figure out a good mix that looks like wood. So far walnut flour mixed with brown dye looks ok but so does wood dust mixed in the resin. Cheers, Seth




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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd also try for a mix giving an ivory-like appearance. I mean, the white resin is actually looking like extremely bleached ivory. Adding just a bit of some ocre, orange, maybe brown, but minute amounts ,will give a good ivory-like colour. (hopefully)
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