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Norden Sackpipa Association of the Americas (NSAA) Jerry Revelle in memoriam
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Stuart
Joined: 28 Oct 2006 Posts: 12 Location: Comox, BC Canada
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Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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The way I understand it (please correct me if I"m wrong Seth)
the chimney height, the height from the top of the main bore to the bottom of the scallop effects the note the chanter will play.
IE, if you cut off the chanter precisely at the hole, it would not play the note you expected, but be higher in tone, the actually location for a simple tube playing the note would be the length of the chimney BELOW that location.
So, if you make the scallop too deep, the note will be too high, if the scallop is too shallow, the note too flat. Either can be corrected for, but if you are going to err, do it on the side of flat, much simpler to correct.
My first scalloped chanter (based on the plans Per Dervels used to have posted on the net), I had already made a few Scottish small pipes so full of my skills and knowledge of how things were done, I carefully tuned everything in... THEN I scalloped it. Was stupidly out of pitch. I was crashing disappointed. After much messing about and finally coming to the realization of what I did wrong, it went onto the first of my regular spring solstice fires on the sea shore, along with other mistakes and musical disasters of the year. (wait till you get aload of what a nasty tool catch can do to a nearly finished instrument. 'tis not pretty.) I was much more careful after that and learned to do things in the recommended order.
Stu |
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Tex Senior User
Joined: 28 Oct 2006 Posts: 103
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:13 am Post subject: |
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I don't think we should over look how easy it is to flip a negative and the photo of Gudmunds Nils may have been flipped. I don't know for sure but, when I loaded the photo of Gudmunds Nils and flipped than flipped the image it looked more natural to me. Guess we will never know for sure but, the flipped image turns a lefty into a righty with the bag under his right arm as Olle had mentioned. |
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jerry revelle Senior User
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 Posts: 115 Location: Elk Mound, Wisconsin USA (rural)
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:07 am Post subject: Gudmunds Nils--Left or right handed |
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My cousin in Dalarna has a family photo of Gudmunds Nils playing for my second cousin when she was a little girl. I've seen it but, of course, didn't pay attention to left or right hand playing. I'm going to see if I can get a copy. Unless he was totally ambidextrous and changed hands at will, we will know (unless THIS photo, taken by another cousin, was also, possibly flipped). |
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Tex Senior User
Joined: 28 Oct 2006 Posts: 103
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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I just looked at the shirt Gudmunds Nils is wearing and his shirt buttons like a mans shirt should. I feel very certain saying that Gudmunds Nils played as shown in the photo and the negative was not flipped. A second photo should show him playing the same way.... |
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Olle Site Admin
Joined: 21 Oct 2006 Posts: 435 Location: Uppsala, Sweden
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Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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The main point, to me, is not whether he plays left handed or not or whether the photo was flipped. Even if it was, he plays with the bag hand at the bottom, and the "free" arm on top. Which is a mix between left- and right handed playing. _________________ Info on Swedish bagpipes at http://olle.gallmo.se/sackpipa
More about me at http://olle.gallmo.se |
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Tex Senior User
Joined: 28 Oct 2006 Posts: 103
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Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:52 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by Tex on Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:53 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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chad_fross
Joined: 02 Feb 2007 Posts: 37 Location: Seoul Korea
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:01 pm Post subject: thanks for the plans |
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Thanks for the Plans you have posted here Texaspiper.........
I have made a few "practice" chanters (practice here, in the sense that they were my practice runs for turning Swedish chanters), and became confident enough to turn two more chanters, this time one in Purpleheart wood, and the other in Bocote. I love the way they look and the way they sound and am planning on completing the set with a drone. I am considering making them bellows blown, however (straying from the norm, I know), in order to completely cut out the moisture/reed/stability issue since I currently only have phragmites australis available to me. I know that a one or two of you out there have bellows blown sackpipa, do you play them more than your mouth-blown sets?
As soon as I get the leather and rivets I ordered from tandy leather, I will make the bag and bellows. Once I get the sets up and running the way I want, I will try to post some pictures. I am also toying with making one of them with two drones: a bass drone and the normal tenor drone. I just love haunting tone of an added bass drone. My two "real" sackpipa chanters are in E/A. Any Idea how long of a drone I would have to make in order for it to play an octave below chanter's E note? Could I get away with using the same size reeds in a bass drone as I use in the chanter/ normal tenor drone?
Thanks,
Chad _________________ Chad |
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Olle Site Admin
Joined: 21 Oct 2006 Posts: 435 Location: Uppsala, Sweden
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | I know that a one or two of you out there have bellows blown sackpipa, do you play them more than your mouth-blown sets? |
Yes, I play the bellows blown set a lot more than the mouth blown one. It is so much more reliable. Not always, though. When travelling (i.e. under sudden climate changes), the mouth blown set may very well be the most reliable of the two. And, in any case, I always begin concerts on mouth blown pipes, to honour the tradition and to be able to present the bellows blown version as an extension, not the norm.
Quote: | Any Idea how long of a drone I would have to make in order for it to play an octave below chanter's E note? |
About double length
Quote: | Could I get away with using the same size reeds in a bass drone as I use in the chanter/ normal tenor drone? |
If you are very lucky, but probably not. It would be very difficult to make it stable (under varying bag pressure) for both notes. Compare to the chanter - when you press harder on the bag, the bottom E and the top E do not behave the same way, do they? So if you make reed adjustments to make on of them steady, the other one won't be. _________________ Info on Swedish bagpipes at http://olle.gallmo.se/sackpipa
More about me at http://olle.gallmo.se |
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favrepipes
Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 63 Location: Vancouver
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Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:39 am Post subject: |
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I am preparing to invest some time into research and development and I'm curious about some of the other existing designs already out there. Here are some questions I have:
Re drones -- Does anyone's sackpipa have a narrower bore for their drone than chanter? Also, is your sackpipa drone's bore equal throughout its length or does the bottom piece have a wider bore than for the top piece, as like with most other varieties of pipes?
Re tone holes -- Has the b3rd ever been moved to the front as a doubled-hole instead of exclusively played by the right hand thumb? When angling toneholes, such as for the doubled-toneholes, does the direction of the chimney always exit towards the bottom of the chanter or are there instances where it angles back towards the top (reed-end)? Does anyone's chanter have toneholes where the chimney is tapered so as to form a V?
Has there ever been attempts at making a chanter fully chromatic with the addition of keys, and are there any chanters with gradually flared/tapered bores from the last tone hole to the bell?
Any input would be greatly appreciated!
Bo |
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Anders Jackson Senior User
Joined: 28 Nov 2006 Posts: 142 Location: Dalarna, Sweden
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Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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About the drone, I only know of so called cannon drilled holes. That is, a straight hole. Without any experience about making pipes, I guess that the straight drill that gives a tone that is the characteristic for Säckpipa.
I don't understand by the 3:rd? Is it the second lower thumb hole? That is a later (latest) common inovation that, as I know, isn't in old instruments. It's like that the other tuning hole from minor/major tuning. That is even a bit earlier innovation than the second thumb hole.
So they are both relative new innovations.
The drilling of that doubled is a technicality. You only play in one tuning at a time. So this mostly used drilling will give you a better/easier way to play in minor/major. No different fingering when playing minor/major.
I don't understand what a V-shape will give?
There might been attempts to make a fully chromatic chanter. But I guess they all has faild. And I don't think it will be that good either. You have the bordune that will give a frame to play within. So I guess it will not be so usefull.
If you gradually flared/tapered bores from the last tone hole to the bell. That could make the last tuning hole hard to use. Or if you do that after the tuning hole, it will only be a decoration.
My opinion, to much changing on the chanter will make it another type of bagpipes.
And yes, this is my opinions, and I think I am right. But please don't make my opinions hinder you from exepriment. I would love to be proven wrong
As people did with the evolution of nyckelharpa during beginning of 1900 to the shape it has today. _________________ No MSN or ICQ. Only Jabber at <xmpp:anders.jackson@gmail.com>
Änd sorri får maj misspellingz, inglish is nått maj först language. |
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favrepipes
Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 63 Location: Vancouver
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Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:32 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for your input , Anders. I certainly don't want to re-invent the sackpipa, but since I have the equipment at hand, it is inspiring to further explore the instrument's capabilities. I do plan on continuing to turn sets following traditional designs, but I also like the idea of having a second route where I can experiment, even if the result is no longer deemed a sackpipa.
There are several pipes that are nearly chromatic and, while I understand that not all pitches will work against a drone, the offending notes can be handled in such a way that they will contribute to a melodic line. For example, these can be used as passing notes or for ornamentation. There is also the possibilty of shutting off the drone while playing a passage with too many dissonant notes.
All drones that I've ever examined have been in 2 or 3 segments, that is a top piece and a lower piece with an occasional middle piece for longer drones like the bass drone on a Bechonnet or a set of uilleann pipes. All bores are straight within each segment but the 2nd segment is usually wider than the 1st, and the 3rd segment is wider than the 2nd. What I was trying to find out is if there is a technical reason, tradition aside, why the sackpipa doesn't follow this scheme, or why it has the same size bore as the chanter since it makes musical sense that the drone be quieter than the chanter.
Regards,
Bo |
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Olle Site Admin
Joined: 21 Oct 2006 Posts: 435 Location: Uppsala, Sweden
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Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:19 am Post subject: |
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I think the inner diameter of an Alban Faust E drone is 5.5 mm, i.e. slightly less than the chanter. I can take measures, of course. I also think that it is the same diameter in both sections. Longer drones than that, however, are usually made in steps as you describe, Bo, as far as I know. It's just my intuition, but I think a long drone with the same diameter throughout would easily stop when playing.
About the 3rd, I think you misunderstood, Anders. I understood the question as why the right hand thumb hole isn't a double hole under the right hand long finger instead. My answer to that question, if that was indeed the question, is that a separate hole for the right hand thumb gives more flexibility. You can easily play songs which use both G and G#, which would be more difficult if it was a double hole. Besides, the right hand thumb had nothing else to do ...
I would not want a chromatic chanter, not if done through cross fingering at least. It would destroy one of the neat benefits of Swedish pipes - that you can switch between different fingerings when needed. You can play fully open or (almost) fully closed. That would not be possible if the chanter were chromatic. Making it so with keys sounds like a better idea. The flea hole technique used in many other east european bagpipes would be even better. On the other hand, isn't keeping the notes we already have in tune enough work for you? :-) _________________ Info on Swedish bagpipes at http://olle.gallmo.se/sackpipa
More about me at http://olle.gallmo.se |
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Anders Jackson Senior User
Joined: 28 Nov 2006 Posts: 142 Location: Dalarna, Sweden
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Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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favrepipes> Please read last sentence in my post I do like to have different ideas tested. I just a bit skeptical myself. Experimenting is fun, like the glove säckpipa. So please try and tell us how it went, if you try it. But at some point it will not be a säckpipa any more, but a new instrument. I don't think that is by default a bad thing though. (Just wanted it to be clear on this )
Olle> About the 3rd, I think you are right, I missunderstood favrepipes question. And I also agree on your answer.
By the way Jan W (alias Liramannen), wasn't this thumb hole introduced in the säckpipa-workshop/course at FFF in Falun around 1990? I guess that it was there I first heard and saw this.
The purpose, as I remeber it, was to make it possible to play both G and G# at the same time as you wrote (but it was so long time ago, wasn't it Olle and Jan )
About chromatic chanter, I fully agree with Olle. The strong part about the säckpipa is the many possibilitis to change fingering. It give some different apearence in tunes. Just try to play same tune with open and than closed fingering. It is quite different.
(Hmm, I have to find something to dissagree on to Olle soon. I start to sound like his echo ) _________________ No MSN or ICQ. Only Jabber at <xmpp:anders.jackson@gmail.com>
Änd sorri får maj misspellingz, inglish is nått maj först language. |
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favrepipes
Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 63 Location: Vancouver
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: |
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There certainly is plenty to learn about tuning and playing these pipes as they are There is also no doubt in my mind that a seemingly simpler design can sometimes prove to be richer and more "complete" without the added frills, such that a fully extended chanter, for example, is not necessarily an improvement. It is fun to experiment nonetheless
There is a retired ethnomusicology professor living in my area who taught at the local university where I studied music. Much of his later research has been centered around northern European (continental) pipes and he has had access to many restricted historic pipes in museums. He had me over for a visit recently to discuss various pipe designs, repertoire, history, etc., and to check out his 4 personal sets - 2 french, a flemish and a gajda. I noticed that most had the right thumb b3rd hole at the back even though they came from different regions. He informed me that many northern European pipes now include the extra tonehole, so it is no surprise that modern säckpipa makers have adopted this extension. The interesting thing is that he asked me if I could permanently plug that hole because it got in the way of his fingering somehow and hindered his playing. I opted not to perform this alteration as this is a sensitive issue and highly controversial, but it does reinforce the above view that sometimes simpler is better.
The only säckpipa design that I've had the opportunity to study up close is that of Eriksson. It seems very solid but I am curious as to how other reputable makers' designs differ or what similarities they share. Any feedback on this subject is always welcome.
On another note, I'll be attending a week long course in Ireland this summer to study the effects of toneholes, chimney heights, critical bore areas, etc, on the uilleann pipes. It is taught by 2 of the top tier makers. I'm hoping that some of this information will translate to the säckpipa. I would also like to take a trip to Sweden sometime in the near future, both for vacationing and for research. Is there a hot spot and particular time of year that is better for catching good music and viewing traditional instruments (pipes especially, of course)? |
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Olle Site Admin
Joined: 21 Oct 2006 Posts: 435 Location: Uppsala, Sweden
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Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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Some people have ergonomical problems with the right hand thumb hole at first. The thumb must be held further down than perhaps feels natural. My hand hurt for a while when I got my first set with a thumb hole. And I have had some students who I recommended to plug the hole with bees wax until they felt comfortable with it. It is not a necessary note to be able to play for a beginner anyway. I think it was Alban Faust who introduced the right hand thumb hole for Swedish pipes, probably in the late 80's.
Bagpiping events in Sweden are not common place occurences, I'm afraid. But if you happen to be here towards the end of June I would love to see you at the yearly bagpipers meeting we have in Gagnef, Dalarna. June 29th - July 1st. 10 year anniversary this year! _________________ Info on Swedish bagpipes at http://olle.gallmo.se/sackpipa
More about me at http://olle.gallmo.se |
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Aaron K. Holt Senior User
Joined: 01 Nov 2006 Posts: 291 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:11 am Post subject: |
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I can certainly say that I had problems with the right hand thumbhole at first. I always felt like my thumb was accidentally going to slip off the chanter, and this insecurity gradually spread to my other fingers so I always felt like I was going to loose my grip on the chanter. As a result I gripped the chanter too firmly, which caused me to play too fast, and my timing was a mess. I also had trouble getting that note to sound correctly because I was playing it completely closed.
Once I learned to play it with all holes below it open, it sounded correctly and I started to get used to it. After about three months it didn't bother me anymore. Once in a while it feels weird, but that is happening less and less frequently. I am also not as tense when I play anymore, that tension was having a horrible effect on my playing.
Having the ability to switch keys using the thumbhole or the Bb/B C/C# holes on my chanter really expands the range of tunes that I can learn to play. I'm very glad that I have that thumbhole now because I wouldn't be able to play about 1/3 of my repertoire without it. _________________ Aaron |
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favrepipes
Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 63 Location: Vancouver
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Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 9:01 am Post subject: |
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Re Gagnef: thanks for the heads up, Olle! I'll see what I can wrangle around here. |
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DRUMALBAN
Joined: 14 May 2009 Posts: 41 Location: Argyll, Scotland
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Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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I have been travelling - and often staying for long periods - to the Rhodope Mountains in Bulgaria for over forty years. In that time I've known or seen probably more than 200 players of the kaba gaida. I would suggest that around 90% of them played with the right hand uppermost, despite the fact that they play with the bag under the left arm and therefore actually have to begin with the left hand on the chanter in order to start the drone (they "pop" the end with a finger from the right hand) and then swap around. This is why they always start on their top note, then go down to the drone note (three-finger), then start the drone and then go back to the top not in order to switch hands around. It has become the "signature" starting phrase of the kaba gaida. |
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texasbagpiper Senior User
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 Posts: 352 Location: Texas
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Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Updated Plans * 7-3-09 * |
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Ingwi
Joined: 26 Nov 2009 Posts: 1 Location: Ukraine, Crimea, Simferopol.
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Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Excuse, I not so well am guided here. I from Ukraine and already long time search for plans for sackpipe. Here it is written that plans are removed and updated, but I have not seen the image. Could you send me the plans by E-mail or post it out here?
I will be very grateful. Or, if it is impossible, could you tell me where I can find plans for sackpipe?
With best regards, Dmitriy. |
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Anders Jackson Senior User
Joined: 28 Nov 2006 Posts: 142 Location: Dalarna, Sweden
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:24 am Post subject: |
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You can order plans for Swedish säckpipa from Dalarnas museum in Falun, Sweden. Or from the Music museum in Stockholm, Sweden.
Please use Google to find them. _________________ No MSN or ICQ. Only Jabber at <xmpp:anders.jackson@gmail.com>
Änd sorri får maj misspellingz, inglish is nått maj först language. |
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Yuri Senior User
Joined: 16 Dec 2006 Posts: 149 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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Seth has made the same plans available on another forum.
http://makingandplayingbagpipes.theiforum.com
You will have to register. Look under "Swedish bagpipes" section.
Good luck. |
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texasbagpiper Senior User
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 Posts: 352 Location: Texas
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Nikita Chasovnikov
Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Posts: 3 Location: Kaliningrad, Russia
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Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:02 am Post subject: |
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Thank you, Seth!
Now I'm only looking for a good lathe.
Nikita |
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Yuri Senior User
Joined: 16 Dec 2006 Posts: 149 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:47 am Post subject: |
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You can make a reasonable set without a lathe, in the case of Swedish pipes. (and some others, too.) All you need is some dry elder. (бузина, Sambucus.) You need to find sticks that are straight (in this lenght it is not really difficult), and have a suitable bore diameter. If it's some up to 1/2 mm different, either way, that's OK. A bigger difference is not good, though. Then it is a matter of carving (instead of turning) the actual pipes. Don't worry, this has been done very many times in the past by peasant pipers who did not have a lathe. (though I never heard of a Swedish pipe made that way, but I'm fairly sure there must have been some)
If you can only get living elder, the present time is the best to harvest it. Mid-winter, that is. (my way it is mid-summer, the worst time for it.) You will need to push out the pith (the middle spongy canal), with some thick stiff wire and put the wood into some dry, but not hot place. Outside under some kind of roof is fine. (Though, if you live in a place that has very cold times, so the wood would freeze, better keep it inside, in a shed, if you have one)(I just realised you are in Kaliningrad, so that makes it too cold for outside. For some reason I thought you are in Ukraine) Some people take the bark off, but in my experience this makes the risk of splitting bigger. If you do take the bark off, seal the ends of the sticks, with some Vaseline. That is the simplest stuff I found after using a lot of other things for sealing.
But all this doesn't mean you shouldn't make some sets after you get a lathe. It's just to perhaps get yourself a set a bit quicker.
Good luck.
Last edited by Yuri on Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Nikita Chasovnikov
Joined: 29 Nov 2009 Posts: 3 Location: Kaliningrad, Russia
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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:00 am Post subject: |
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Thank you, Yuri
It is the simpliest way to get bagpipe quicker and practice
I thought someone here on the forum made a Swedish bagpipe of elder. But I don't remember who it was.
Nikita
Last edited by Nikita Chasovnikov on Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Olle Site Admin
Joined: 21 Oct 2006 Posts: 435 Location: Uppsala, Sweden
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Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Yuri wrote: | Then it is a matter of carving (instead of turning) the actual pipes. Don't worry, this has been done very many times in the past by peasant pipers who did not have a lathe. (though I never heard of a Swedish pipe made that way, but I'm fairly sure there must have been some) |
Not from elder, but some of the old instruments in birch seem to have been carved with a knife, rather than turned. _________________ Info on Swedish bagpipes at http://olle.gallmo.se/sackpipa
More about me at http://olle.gallmo.se |
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Chrischan
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 Posts: 19 Location: Northern Germany
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Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Ho
I have made two säckpipas from elder. One mouthblown with one drone and one bellowblown with two drones. Its a really great material!
Try it out. |
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Yuri Senior User
Joined: 16 Dec 2006 Posts: 149 Location: New Zealand
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Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:33 am Post subject: |
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Can you put a photo or two on? |
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Chrischan
Joined: 29 Aug 2008 Posts: 19 Location: Northern Germany
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Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:31 am Post subject: |
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Of course!
click
The pictures are on page 1 and 2.
The first one is made completly of Elder and the pipes of the second one, too.
On the second picture there are two drones. One E and one high E. The high E drone sounded really creepy, so i made a A drone of it. (not on the picture)
At the moment it has a dummy drone. I hope it will going to be a deep E drone, but I have big problems to build a stable reed...
additionally i have built a chanter of Plum. Elder sounds okay, but of course, there a difference between Plum and Elder!
Greetings
Chrischan
Edit: The site where I posted the pictures is a german pipebuilding forum. |
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